What's more important? allegiance to the flag/nation or to Jesus

[stevicus]

This is an interesting topic.

One question I have in regards to Jesus’ words “Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s,” how would that be applicable to citizens under a democratic-republican government like the United States? Unlike the Roman dictatorship, citizens in the U.S. have the right to vote and exert power over the government. Collectively, the people are “Caesar,” in a manner of speaking.

Will God hold us responsible for our voting choices?

If we vote for the lesser of two evils, is it still evil?

 

[ClamDigger]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my questions. Do you think teaching children to pledge allegiance to a flag or nation is a form of brainwashing?

Is raising children in a religion brainwashing them? If America or any other nation is really that important to a parent, then, by all means, they should raise their children with their ideals. If you are so opposed to pledging allegiance, then raise your children to not say it. If a teacher calls them out on it, take the school to court for violating your first amendment rights!

Can people choose not to do it?

Of course. I chose not to do it from about the age of fourteen onwards. I still rose when it was said, but I didn’t put my hand over my heart or say it.

If someone refuses to pledge allegiance, how willl they be viewed/treated?

I would say it’s not a big deal. How often are we, as adults, asked to say the pledge? And, as a child, I was never called out on not saying the pledge by anyone.

Why is it so important for Americans to pledge allegiance to a flag or nation?

It’s probably something about creating future soldiers. Similar to how the Aztecs and Spartans said that the only people who were admitted to heaven were women who died in childbirth (presumably giving birth to future soldiers) and soldiers who died in battle. Then again, I don’t know if that is true. It’s really just conjecture on my part.
It might also be something completely innocent, like trying to instill pride in their heritage in them.

Should the practice be discontinued?

I don’t see why?

There will come a time, and I believe it is soon, that Christians will be martryed in America and north of it. It’s not a question of IF but rather WHEN. With this in mind, I believe it’s important to pledge allegiance to Christ Jesus our Lord alone, and not to any nation/flag. Believers will be severely tested/persecuted. We need to know where we stand now before the battle becomes severe.

Haven’t people been saying this kind of thing for thousands of years now? It’s getting kind of old…

 

[FCEGM]

As a daughter of two nazi holocaust survivor’s, I tell you the true Christians of nazi Germany were in the minority. While the majority were blinded by nationalism, true Christians disobeyed their elected government officials and their country’s laws, but rather sheltered Jews and others who were threatened with extermination. In America, who is being exterminated today? What do the majority of Americans think about the killing of innocents? And your government, has it not legalized abortion? and are not your tax dollars funding it?

In Germany, if discovered, the “righteous” were murdered by other “Christians” who blindly obeyed Germany’s nazi ideology. Do the majority of Americans blindly follow the culture of death in America?. Have any of you ever experienced open hostility from other Americans for witnessing your Catholic Christian faith? For example, for acting on or expressing your pro-life views in public? Have you ever been called unAmerican when acting on your Christian faith? Each Catholic Christian should ask to what extent is conformity to and acceptance of their nations values/laws a detriment to following Jesus. The signs are all around you.

Catholic Christians do not belong to the world, but to Christ and we should not be surprised when persecution comes. Pledge your allegiance to Christ alone.

Pledging allegiance to the flag of one’s country is an expression of patriotism, which St. Thomas Aquinas writes of as a virtue:

St. Thomas Aquinas had already coupled together these two devotions, to parents and to country (Summa Theologica, 2a, 2ae, Q. 101). Dealing with the virtue of “pietas,” dutifulness, he writes: “The principles (or origins) of our being and governing are our parents and our country, which have given us birth and nourishment. Consequently man is debtor chiefly to his parents and his country, after God. Wherefore, just as it belongs to religion to give worship to God, so does it belong to “pietas,” in the second place, to give worship to one’s parents and one’s country.” Thus, unlike nationalism, patriotism comes within the sphere of virtue, duty, and moral obligation.

That this is and has always been the teaching of the Catholic Church may be gathered from the pronouncements of the Head of the Church as collected in such a work as La Patrie et la Paix. Textes pontificaux.5 Thus we find Pius X, in an address delivered in French to French pilgrims on April 19, 1909, saying in express terms: “Si le catholicisme etait ennemi de la patrie, il ne serait plus une religion divine” (if Catholicism were the enemy of the country, it would no longer be a divine religion). He went on to say (the translation is mine): Yes, it is worthy not only of love but of predilection that country (patrie) whose sacred name awakens in your mind the most cherished memories and makes quiver every fiber of your soul, that common country which has cradled you, to which you are bound by bonds of blood and by still nobler bonds of affection and tradition."

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1125&CFID=14267995&CFTOKEN=59700573

Of course Christ must come first in one’s life and win out against any oppression against His Church either individually or collectively that one’s country imposes. It’s not difficult to see such occasions for exercising one’s choice for Him coming more and more to the fore.

 

[Regardless]

The WWJD is not really often the best way to go in general…

For Jesus would not do a lot of things …that I can certainly do as his disciple…

In general? Can you give me any examples?
What things would Jesus not do that we can certainly do as his disciples?

I understand you are a Jehovah’s Witness so you have some very different beliefs than us…(starting with Who Jesus is) and this is one of them as I recall.

Sure, you know we won’t go to war or salute the flag or vote for political leaders.

John 13:34,35. 15:18-20, 17:16 are all statements by Jesus where he showed his followers would be doing exactly what he had/would have done.
We conclude his example is the best for us try and follow.

 

[LaFleurDeLis]

Thank you for your thoughtful replies to my questions. Do you think teaching children to pledge allegiance to a flag or nation is a form of brainwashing? Can people choose not to do it? If someone refuses to pledge allegiance, how willl they be viewed/treated? Why is it so important for Americans to pledge allegiance to a flag or nation? Should the practice be discontinued? There will come a time, and I believe it is soon, that Christians will be martryed in America and north of it. It’s not a question of IF but rather WHEN. With this in mind, I believe it’s important to pledge allegiance to Christ Jesus our Lord alone, and not to any nation/flag. Believers will be severely tested/persecuted. We need to know where we stand now before the battle becomes severe.

When I was still in high school (only about 3 years ago) we would say the pledge of allegience everyday during 3rd period. We were all required to stand, but didn’t have to take part if we didn’t wish to do so. I would see some stand there while many of us said the pledge and it just made me wonder why they weren’t saying it.

I believe that the pledge is important, but I don’t think allegience to ones nation should be greater than the allegience to their God. I would never wish any harm to a bible/rosary/or any type of sacramental. However, when it comes to a the flag of my nation, to me it’s just a flag. I have to fold a flag everyday at work. Many would curse me if they saw that it sometimes touches the ground. But to me, it’s just a flag. I love America and support my country fully, but when it comes to whether my allegience is greater towards my nation or my God, I choose my God.