What's With Protestant Funerals ?

[Ghoti]

Maybe the Protestant church of Canada you belonged to suffers from the same issue Canada itself suffers from overall. Lack of spirituality

Now that’s mature. We have the micks and prods bashing each other about the (lack of) spirituality of each other’s funeral services, and it’s now spilled over to nation-bashing. Anyone want to start in on black people as opposed to white people now?

 

[CentralFLJames]

After all the soul is not immortal but we have the possibility of becoming immortal at that day—provided…

Well we are starting to get way off topic here and really should spin off a new thread.

But for the record let me say that the soul IS immortal. And since our spirit is the larger part of our humanity and because we know from scripture that the body is reunited with the soul on the day of 2nd judgement we are essentially immortal beings that just have a transformational phase that we go through (kind of like a worm transforming into a butterfly or a moth). But make no mistake about it we live eternally somewhere - either in heaven or in hell. Rumor has it that the butterflies prefer the white light and the moths shun the intensity and prefer to flee to the dark.

But answer this—is this any worse than believing that the church can save you? Do you believe that because the church says they will save you, you feel you don’t need a personal relationship with Christ? Especially since the Scriptures tell us differently…

Its not a matter of degree. God never gave us a super buffet of truth to pick and chose from. There is only one offering of Eucharistic Truth. God has only one Son and only one spoken true Christian teaching. Everything else is fractional truth or doctrine or secular moral code; an “ecclesiastical club” if you will.

None of us ever want to come under the weight of God’s exacting Justice - we want to enter the court room and before a charge is made immediately plead guilty and beg for God’s Mercy. In a manner we hope that Jesus, who stands before God recognizes us and rushes to stand between us and God to shield us from God’s piercing and discerning eyes before a judgement is rendered.

Of course we want a personal relationship with God - we do that in every aspect of our Catholic lives through prayer, deeds, and obedience - especially in receiving the Eucharist into our hearts.

The Church does not save us. Only Jesus saves. But the Church becomes the channel by which salvific graces from God are channeled to us through the sacraments. We can also receive grace directly through prayer and fasting and alms giving (or dieing for God as a martyr) but not anywhere on the scale we can get through the Holy Mass and the Eucharist; which we are commanded to eat least we die. We are all members of the one body of Christ (the Church) and we have much greater strength and unity when we stand together in one common flock than we do when standing alone. More particularly we are called to be members of The Body of Christ not to be lone rangers who can be picked off one by one by God’s enemies when seperated from the protection of the flock.

Spin off a new topic please if you’d like to talk more.
James

 

[brotherhrolf]

We have had several deaths in my office over the years and I have attended quite a few Southern Baptist funerals. Emotionally and religiously, they leave me cold. But I understand the theology that goes along with such funerals and I think that is the difference.

Most Southern Baptists adhere to OSAS. If the person has made his or her profession of belief, that’s it. Off to heaven they go. The body is just a shell. Their funerals reflect this.

Me? I want to be able to walk up to the casket, kneel, and pray for the repose of the soul of the departed. As an Irish-American, celebrations of the person’s life belong upstairs in the kitchen of the funeral parlor and back home after the deceased has been laid to rest.

A very good friend of mine who was raised Southern Baptist was in RCIA and was within 10 days of Easter when he passed away. He was 50. I was able to kneel at the side of his casket and pray for him. The Communion of Saints is such a wonderful concept, isn’t it? How different would his funeral have been if it had been in a SBC?

I understand where our Protestant friends are coming from. Intellectually it makes perfect sense. Emotionally, I’m glad I’m Catholic and can grieve.

 

[Orionthehunter]

James buddy:

I think you have allowed your emotions and mourning to enter into your post which have caused you to be less than charitable.

Funerals are an expression of theology. Because we have differences in theology w/ our Baptist breathren, it is natural that our funerals will be different. But as in all things, we Catholics believe that all Christian religions have elements of the Truth. And, as Catholics, we are called to celebrate that which we have in common.

It was unrealistic for you to expect that a Baptist funeral would include all aspects of our theology. When I go to a non-Catholic funeral, I incorporate privately some components of what I expect to be missing. I usually pray for my friends soul, read and reflect on the prayers of a Catholic funeral, and might even go to Daily Mass before hand. This allows me to more fully enter into the funeral service without distraction of what is missing.

Regarding the altar call, I also think you need to have a more charitable heart. Who doesn’t want their death to be a cause of conversion? If this was your friend’s theology, why would you think it wouldn’t be incorporated? Again, it is an issue of not being prepared with realistic expectations.

Regarding the minister’s statements that oppose the Catholic Church, again it goes with preparing for the worst. The more anti-Catholic the theology, the more I expect to be faced w/ anti-Catholic components of the service. I’ll never forget the time that I stood up during the “sharing” portion of the prayer service the night before where I expressed my sorrow, told of the good parts of my friend, and then made the mistake of saying, I will remember “Joe” in my prayers. The minister stood up and said “Remember him in your heart and mind. God has no use for your feeble idolatrous Catholic prayers.” Instead of anger, what popped into my heart was Christ at the tribunal of Annias where He just bowed His head in prayer rather than responding to His accusers. I did my best to do likewise before sitting down. Not a single person there came up afterward to express a single apology. Instead they treated me like a infidel.

All night I pondered if I should go to the funeral. I didn’t want to be a distraction or negative “force”. At the same time, I felt that I should be there since I had known the family for as long as I could remember. I went, sat in the back, and intended to not eat at the meal afterward or go the cemetary. But, as I was leaving, the sister of my friend made a point to call me on my way out of the door and invite me to sit with her for the meal. While she didn’t think that “Joe” needed my prayers, she understood that I was doing it out of love and she wanted to make sure that I knew it was appreciated. This charity allowed me to more fully grasp Christ’s act of prayer the night before. He not only asked that they be forgiven, He said “they know not what they are doing.” I had forgotten the latter the night before.

James, I really respect you here at CAF. But I think you kinda let your emotions get the better of you. God Bless You. I pray for you and your friend during this difficult time.

 

[Rightlydivide]

James buddy:

I think you have allowed your emotions and mourning to enter into your post which have caused you to be less than charitable.

Funerals are an expression of theology. Because we have differences in theology w/ our Baptist breathren, it is natural that our funerals will be different. But as in all things, we Catholics believe that all Christian religions have elements of the Truth. And, as Catholics, we are called to celebrate that which we have in common.

It was unrealistic for you to expect that a Baptist funeral would include all aspects of our theology. When I go to a non-Catholic funeral, I incorporate privately some components of what I expect to be missing. I usually pray for my friends soul, read and reflect on the prayers of a Catholic funeral, and might even go to Daily Mass before hand. This allows me to more fully enter into the funeral service without distraction of what is missing.

Regarding the altar call, I also think you need to have a more charitable heart. Who doesn’t want their death to be a cause of conversion? If this was your friend’s theology, why would you think it wouldn’t be incorporated? Again, it is an issue of not being prepared with realistic expectations.

Regarding the minister’s statements that oppose the Catholic Church, again it goes with preparing for the worst. The more anti-Catholic the theology, the more I expect to be faced w/ anti-Catholic components of the service. I’ll never forget the time that I stood up during the “sharing” portion of the prayer service the night before where I expressed my sorrow, told of the good parts of my friend, and then made the mistake of saying, I will remember “Joe” in my prayers. The minister stood up and said “Remember him in your heart and mind. God has no use for your feeble idolatrous Catholic prayers.” Instead of anger, what popped into my heart was Christ at the tribunal of Annias where He just bowed His head in prayer rather than responding to His accusers. I did my best to do likewise before sitting down. Not a single person there came up afterward to express a single apology. Instead they treated me like a infidel.

All night I pondered if I should go to the funeral. I didn’t want to be a distraction or negative “force”. At the same time, I felt that I should be there since I had known the family for as long as I could remember. I went, sat in the back, and intended to not eat at the meal afterward or go the cemetary. But, as I was leaving, the sister of my friend made a point to call me on my way out of the door and invite me to sit with her for the meal. While she didn’t think that “Joe” needed my prayers, she understood that I was doing it out of love and she wanted to make sure that I knew it was appreciated. This charity allowed me to more fully grasp Christ’s act of prayer the night before. He not only asked that they be forgiven, He said “they know not what they are doing.” I had forgotten the latter the night before.

James, I really respect you here at CAF. But I think you kinda let your emotions get the better of you. God Bless You. I pray for you and your friend during this difficult time.

Your insight is amazing. As a fundamentalist, I apologize for the way you were treated. It was not my church I am sure but may God richly bless you.

 

[Zooey]

As a friend of the man I was outraged that the Baptist preacher took my friend’s death as an opportunity to prosetylize and build his own congregation and impugn other religious beliefs on the occasion of my friend’s death. That was just low class and indecent. As far as I am concerned that dishonored my friend…

I agree with you.
I have seen this kind of thing, and it is, IMNSHO, completely inappropriate.

My principal revulsion was to the tackiness of the (Baptist) Protestant minister trying to take what should have been solemn occasion (which is simultaneously both happy spirtually but sad in our human empathy) and turn it PRINCIPALLY into an opportunity to recruit new members into HIS church. We were all essentially held hostage by desire to pay respects to our departed friend by a host who exploited the event for his own entirely seperate agenda. It was not about respecting the deceased or even worshiping God it was about recruiting for HIS church.

The minister hijacked the agenda implicit through the common natural human expectation to honor the deceased.

The other doctrinal things mentioned that troubled me (e.g. how to get closure from a non-liturgical based gathering that does not even honor or respect the deceased) are less important to me now that the shock of it has been superseded by prior thing above.

James

I understand. You experienced the:banghead: worst kind of a pastor’s behaviour, at a time when you were in great pain…
I only wish that your exposure to a non-Catholic funeral might have been more on the lines that O S Luke posted here:
**

**Service of Death & Resurrection
**

United Methodist Liturgy

• Gathering
• Words of Grace
• Christian Greeting
• Hymn

• Prayer/Collect
• OT Lesson
• Psalm
• NT Lesson
• Psalm, Canticle, or Hymn
• Gospel Lesson
• Sermon/Homily
• Naming (Reading of Memorial/Obituary)
• Witness (Short testimony of friends and famliy, signs of faith, hope, love exchanged)
• Hymn
• Creed (Apostles’ or Nicene)

• Commendation Prayer
• The Great Thanksgiving (if there is a Eucharist) OR
Prayer of Thanksgiving
• The Lord’s Prayer
• (with Eucharist) Giving the Bread and Cup
• Hymn
• Benediction

Committal at graveside.**

This is the way that my own [Methodist] pastor conducts a funeral. It is reverent, it is an occasion which truly “celebrates” the life of the deceased, while acknowledging the grief of those who are left behind.
And he closes with this prayer:

“Into Thine own Hands,O merciful Saviour, we commend the soul of your servant [name]. Acknowledge, we humbly bessech Thee, a sheep of Your own fold; a lamb of Thine own flock; a sinner of Your redeeming.
Receive him [her] into the arms of Your mercy, into the blessed rest of eternal life, and into the glorious company of the saints in light.
May his [her] soul, and the souls of all the faithful departed, through Your mercy, rest in peace. Amen.”

PS: All who read here, pray for my pastor, Dan; he is always called to have the funerals of anyone who dies in our community, that has no church or faith. It is a hard task, which he carries out with love, faithfulness, and tender mercies for the deceased & their loved ones.

Bless you, James. You are doing OK. I would have been just as appalled as you are, at the way that “pastor” behaved!!

 

[CentralFLJames]

James buddy:

I think you have allowed your emotions and mourning to enter into your post …

No doubt there is some of that OriontheHunter. But this is not a topic about me. This is a topic intended to learn how Protestants deal with grieving and in particular the appropriateness of turning a grieving event into a recruitment event and if it was standard practise or not. So please speak to the concept that I am addressing here rather than pull me into it as the topic of discussion. You are free to go off topic to address me personally through private message . This is not a topic about me personally.

To account for some of the shock let me say that I did not have much hands-on exposure to fundamentalist Protestant theology. I had no experience to imagine things would be so distant in belief. Mostly in the past I have interacted with the liturgically oriented Protestant sects - Methodists, Presbyterians and a few Lutherans. My exposure to Baptists has been limited to normal work and social relationships. I have always admired their wholesome and “good natured” manner and held them in high moral esteem as Christians; and still do. But I never imagined that their fundamentalism was so far removed from us. This was the first “Altar Call” I ever saw (an ironic term given no altar and only a performing stage). I certainly never imagined anything like this could happen at a funeral. I also never imagined that fellow Christians would turn a somber event into an explicit attack on other’s beliefs. It was the first overt act of anti-Catholicism I have ever personally suffered through in public. It was devestating to discover that people who I always admired and just assumed where generally on the same side - were against me. It was a Wake up Call not an Altar Call. It’s sad to learn the truth about the distance that seperates us. I thought we were closer.

But let’s get this topic back on topic and off of me personally.

Peace,
James

 

[lovesMary]

James buddy:

I think you have allowed your emotions and mourning to enter into your post which have caused you to be less than charitable.

Funerals are an expression of theology. Because we have differences in theology w/ our Baptist breathren, it is natural that our funerals will be different. But as in all things, we Catholics believe that all Christian religions have elements of the Truth. And, as Catholics, we are called to celebrate that which we have in common.

It was unrealistic for you to expect that a Baptist funeral would include all aspects of our theology. When I go to a non-Catholic funeral, I incorporate privately some components of what I expect to be missing. I usually pray for my friends soul, read and reflect on the prayers of a Catholic funeral, and might even go to Daily Mass before hand. This allows me to more fully enter into the funeral service without distraction of what is missing.

Regarding the altar call, I also think you need to have a more charitable heart. Who doesn’t want their death to be a cause of conversion? If this was your friend’s theology, why would you think it wouldn’t be incorporated? Again, it is an issue of not being prepared with realistic expectations.

Regarding the minister’s statements that oppose the Catholic Church, again it goes with preparing for the worst. The more anti-Catholic the theology, the more I expect to be faced w/ anti-Catholic components of the service. I’ll never forget the time that I stood up during the “sharing” portion of the prayer service the night before where I expressed my sorrow, told of the good parts of my friend, and then made the mistake of saying, I will remember “Joe” in my prayers. The minister stood up and said “Remember him in your heart and mind. God has no use for your feeble idolatrous Catholic prayers.” Instead of anger, what popped into my heart was Christ at the tribunal of Annias where He just bowed His head in prayer rather than responding to His accusers. I did my best to do likewise before sitting down. Not a single person there came up afterward to express a single apology. Instead they treated me like a infidel.

All night I pondered if I should go to the funeral. I didn’t want to be a distraction or negative “force”. At the same time, I felt that I should be there since I had known the family for as long as I could remember. I went, sat in the back, and intended to not eat at the meal afterward or go the cemetary. But, as I was leaving, the sister of my friend made a point to call me on my way out of the door and invite me to sit with her for the meal. While she didn’t think that “Joe” needed my prayers, she understood that I was doing it out of love and she wanted to make sure that I knew it was appreciated. This charity allowed me to more fully grasp Christ’s act of prayer the night before. He not only asked that they be forgiven, He said “they know not what they are doing.” I had forgotten the latter the night before.

James, I really respect you here at CAF. But I think you kinda let your emotions get the better of you. God Bless You. I pray for you and your friend during this difficult time.

Now, here is a role model for us all. Well done brother!!! I think the OP would do well to emulate this attitude of the heart, which I do admire. I, too, need to heed your advise and behaviour. This whole post encapsulates how we should respond to so many situations in life, thank you for it!!!

 

[Old_Scholar]

One of the things that the Church gives us is a “personal relationship with Christ,” although we don’t usually phrase it like that.

We touch and hold Jesus in Holy Communion, and take Him into our bodies, in response to His commandment in John 6:58.

We speak to Him through the priest in the Confessional, and receive spoken reassurances of forgiveness from Christ through the priest.

We are commanded to pray constantly; there are so many different forms of prayer available in the Catholic Church - the Mass, the Liturgy of the Hours, the Rosary, the Divine Mercy, every kind of Novena, various Litanies, the Stations of the Cross, and even plain old ordinary extemporaneous prayer.

How much more “personal” would you like it to be?

Prayer is fine as long as you follow Christ’s instructions. If that’s how you wish to do it, that’s between you and God but we did receive instructions directly from Christ:

Matt 6:6 *But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, **pray to thy Father ***which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Personally I pray directly to God and confess my sins to Him. I believe He instructed us to do that. That’s what I call a “personal relationship.” How you do it is your choice and I don’t mean to say you are wrong. That’s how I define a “Personal relationship.”

 

[Old_Scholar]

James buddy:

I think you have allowed your emotions and mourning to enter into your post which have caused you to be less than charitable.

Funerals are an expression of theology. Because we have differences in theology w/ our Baptist breathren, it is natural that our funerals will be different. But as in all things, we Catholics believe that all Christian religions have elements of the Truth. And, as Catholics, we are called to celebrate that which we have in common.

It was unrealistic for you to expect that a Baptist funeral would include all aspects of our theology. When I go to a non-Catholic funeral, I incorporate privately some components of what I expect to be missing. I usually pray for my friends soul, read and reflect on the prayers of a Catholic funeral, and might even go to Daily Mass before hand. This allows me to more fully enter into the funeral service without distraction of what is missing.

Regarding the altar call, I also think you need to have a more charitable heart. Who doesn’t want their death to be a cause of conversion? If this was your friend’s theology, why would you think it wouldn’t be incorporated? Again, it is an issue of not being prepared with realistic expectations.

Regarding the minister’s statements that oppose the Catholic Church, again it goes with preparing for the worst. The more anti-Catholic the theology, the more I expect to be faced w/ anti-Catholic components of the service. I’ll never forget the time that I stood up during the “sharing” portion of the prayer service the night before where I expressed my sorrow, told of the good parts of my friend, and then made the mistake of saying, I will remember “Joe” in my prayers. The minister stood up and said “Remember him in your heart and mind. God has no use for your feeble idolatrous Catholic prayers.” Instead of anger, what popped into my heart was Christ at the tribunal of Annias where He just bowed His head in prayer rather than responding to His accusers. I did my best to do likewise before sitting down. Not a single person there came up afterward to express a single apology. Instead they treated me like a infidel.

All night I pondered if I should go to the funeral. I didn’t want to be a distraction or negative “force”. At the same time, I felt that I should be there since I had known the family for as long as I could remember. I went, sat in the back, and intended to not eat at the meal afterward or go the cemetary. But, as I was leaving, the sister of my friend made a point to call me on my way out of the door and invite me to sit with her for the meal. While she didn’t think that “Joe” needed my prayers, she understood that I was doing it out of love and she wanted to make sure that I knew it was appreciated. This charity allowed me to more fully grasp Christ’s act of prayer the night before. He not only asked that they be forgiven, He said “they know not what they are doing.” I had forgotten the latter the night before.

James, I really respect you here at CAF. But I think you kinda let your emotions get the better of you. God Bless You. I pray for you and your friend during this difficult time.

Well said and the minister who made that comment to you in public was out of line. That is what is uncharitable and certainly showed disrespect in the House of God. It was inexcusable.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Now, here is a role model for us all. Well done brother!!! I think the OP would do well to emulate this attitude of the heart, which I do admire. I, too, need to heed your advise and behaviour. This whole post encapsulates how we should respond to so many situations in life, thank you for it!!!

Don’t give me the credit. Please remember that I was still contemplating not going to the funeral because I had been insulted. My reaction was contrary to my nature (if left to my devices, I’d have torn his head off). The Holy Spirit inspired me to do what I did. The next day, He not only inspired me to go to the funeral but then gave me the understanding why it was what I was to do it while reminding me that I had not done it for the purest of reason (forgiveness for the minister didn’t know what he was doing).

My point of telling the story wasn’t for an “atta boy”, to point to the faults of another, or to reflect the praise in humility. I wanted to tell it because the Holy Spirit gives us opportunity to learn, be charitable, and to be Christ-like. And seldom is it in the context of pointing out the flaws of another’s theology or funeral traditions.

 

[jmcrae]

Prayer is fine as long as you follow Christ’s instructions. If that’s how you wish to do it, that’s between you and God but we did receive instructions directly from Christ:

Matt 6:6 *But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, **pray to thy Father ***which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

We follow all of this. Jesus also commanded other forms of prayer, as well - for example the Our Father. And He attended worship at the Temple as well as in the synagogues, so obviously He did not pray only in his closet. If we are to follow His example, then we, too, are expected to participate in public prayer (especially those that He Himself established, such as the Mass and Confession); not only private prayer.

As to “vain repetitions”, the key word there is “vain” since elsewhere (especially in the parable of the persistent widow) Jesus encourages us to pray repeatedly - so, it’s not the repetition that Jesus has a problem with, but the vanity - if we are just saying words, and not really praying at all. This is a temptation no matter what form of prayer we are using, so we need to be conscious and self-aware when we are praying (and at other times, too) so that we don’t slip into “babbling,” rather than authentic prayer.

Personally I pray directly to God and confess my sins to Him. I believe He instructed us to do that. That’s what I call a “personal relationship.” How you do it is your choice and I don’t mean to say you are wrong. That’s how I define a “Personal relationship.”

I think this is certainly part of what we are supposed to do - but I don’t see it as the whole thing. I don’t see anywhere in the New Testament, or anywhere in the Scriptures at all, where we are called to have a kind of “lone ranger” spirituality.

Elijah, for a period of time, was kind of a “lone ranger” for reasons that were beyond his control, but he didn’t consider this to be optimal, and he was much happier (and so was God, according to the story) when he was able to get back with the worshipping community.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Prayer is fine as long as you follow Christ’s instructions. If that’s how you wish to do it, that’s between you and God but we did receive instructions directly from Christ:

Matt 6:6 *But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, **pray to thy Father ***which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Personally I pray directly to God and confess my sins to Him. I believe He instructed us to do that. That’s what I call a “personal relationship.” How you do it is your choice and I don’t mean to say you are wrong. That’s how I define a “Personal relationship.”

We follow all of this. Jesus also commanded other forms of prayer, as well - for example the Our Father. And He attended worship at the Temple as well as in the synagogues, so obviously He did not pray only in his closet. If we are to follow His example, then we, too, are expected to participate in public prayer (especially those that He Himself established, such as the Mass and Confession); not only private prayer.

As to “vain repetitions”, the key word there is “vain” since elsewhere (especially in the parable of the persistent widow) Jesus encourages us to pray repeatedly - so, it’s not the repetition that Jesus has a problem with, but the vanity - if we are just saying words, and not really praying at all. This is a temptation no matter what form of prayer we are using, so we need to be conscious and self-aware when we are praying (and at other times, too) so that we don’t slip into “babbling,” rather than authentic prayer.

I think this is certainly part of what we are supposed to do - but I don’t see it as the whole thing. I don’t see anywhere in the New Testament, or anywhere in the Scriptures at all, where we are called to have a kind of “lone ranger” spirituality.

Elijah, for a period of time, was kind of a “lone ranger” for reasons that were beyond his control, but he didn’t consider this to be optimal, and he was much happier (and so was God, according to the story) when he was able to get back with the worshipping community.

Not to mention that Christ and the Apostles being the good Jews they were prayed the Psalms so often they had them all memorized. Christ also taught by His example.