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joanofarc2008
Guest
I agree we are all born with free will as a gift from God - this is what gives us the choice to love Him or not. This woman cannot force her children to embrace Him or His Bride without taking away that gift.
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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
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odile53
Guest
Yes, that is well-put, and you are correct in that we are supposed to admonish the sinner as confirmed Catholics, when we become aware of sin happening. That would presumably be when the sinner still has the opportunity of turning away from sin and toward grace. At this late stage, near death and with her children grown to adulthood, I’m wondering how an admonition would serve any useful purpose in terms of this lady changing the way she taught her children. That would be assuming that there was a problem with her spiritual guidance of her children in the first place, and at this point, unless one had firsthand knowledge of specific examples of poor parental religious influence, would be rash judgment. She may have been an exemplary parental catechist, and her children may have decided to follow their own religious pursuits in spite of her good training and example.
The fact that this occurred in the past is what concerns me about an admonition–how is it going to change things at this point? She would be better served by prayers on the part of friends and relatives for the adult kids to revert to the faith, and an attempt to rebuild bridges to them if that’s necessary. She could use that occasion to express her hope that they come back to the Church. Just my two cents on the matter here.
The fact that this occurred in the past is what concerns me about an admonition–how is it going to change things at this point? She would be better served by prayers on the part of friends and relatives for the adult kids to revert to the faith, and an attempt to rebuild bridges to them if that’s necessary. She could use that occasion to express her hope that they come back to the Church. Just my two cents on the matter here.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
First of all, your cousin’s comment was terrible, uncharitable in my opinion. His view presumes much, as if the God holds us accountable for our children’s actions no matter our actions. Even Jesus, the best teacher I know, had disciples leave him. To think that the teacher is always to blame is absurd.
The Church teaches that we may or may not be culpable for the actions of others, depending upon our knowledge and intent. For a summary of this teaching, see here.
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LilyM
Guest
My thoughts too. Jesus, while He was on earth, did His utmost (which is certainly far more than any parent can do) to bring every soul to Him, and yet He failed with many.
If a parent is totally culpable in all circumstances for a child’s rejection of the faith, then how much more culpable would Our Lord be for the souls He failed to convert with His teachings!
There are some, as He put it, who ‘will not be persuaded even if one should come back from the dead to them’. (Luke 16:31) - and for those neither He nor their parents bear blame.
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Inthemountains
Guest
This thread seems to be leaning heavily toward the view that parents don’t have very much of a responsibility for how their children turn out spiritually? Really? If all your children leave the faith or are very poorly formed in their faith, there is no parental responsibility? I don’t know, certaily children have free will and it seems that many families have a “black sheep”, but I have a hard time believing that there isn’t some parental responsibility.
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The_Old_Medic
Guest
Unless the parents have presented a very poor version of what Catholics are, and how Catholics live their faith, they bear no moral responsibility for their adult childrens choices.
Sadly, all too many “Catholic” parents have done exactly that. My in-laws are a perfect example. They are muti-millionaires, who believed that $5.00 a week was more than sufficient to give to the church. They never prayed at home, never had any family religious observances other than weekly Mass, and once their children reached mid-teen ages, they stopped even going to Parish functions…
They showed no charity to anyone, including their adopted daughter who sustained a very severe spinal cord injury at the age of 19 (when people did not become legal adults till the age of 21), and who was still living at home.
They refused to utilize their health insurance program for her (it had a $5,000 maximum deductible - lifetime!), but insisted that she MUST pursue a workers compensation claim against the Catholic Summer Camp where she was injured. The camp disputed the claim, and it took 21 months (and winning at the California Supreme Court) before her first surgery was finally performed. A Priest (a financial director for the Archdiocese) was convicted of perjury for his testimony in her legal case.
The Church fought against making ANY payment to her, and forced her to go to the California Supreme Court twice (she won both times, and set two major decisions under California Workers Compensation law). She finally settled for virtually nothing, because the church was going to make her go back to the Supreme Court again. After 7 years of fighting against her own church (with her parents telling her how evil she was to be doing this), she finally settled for $20,000, no lifetime medical benefits and a lifetime in a wheelchair.
Their eldest child, their natural born son, left the church while his sister was being denied care by his parents, and by the church. Their youngest child (the biological sister of the injured daughter and also adopted ) was horribly abused by her husband, and her parents told her that “you made your bed, now lie in it”.
Both of those adult children stated that they could NOT support any church that treated their sister the way that she had been treated. One of them also stated that seeing what “Catholics are really like opened my eyes about what this whole church is about”.
The mother (father died in 1997) simply cannot understand why 2 of her three children refuse to have anything to do with the Catholic Church. She still blames her middle child for “driving your brother and sister out of the church”.
Ironically, it is that middle child who has ALWAYS remained faithful to the Church. She had been accepted to join the Holy Cross Nuns when she sustained her injury. (Her trunk was packed, she was to go to Indiana at the beginning of September. Her accident happened on August 24th. Needless to say, those Nuns would NOT allow her to join their community after her injury).
That middle child also happens to be my wife, and is one of the very best things that EVER happened in MY life.
No, parents can not be held totally responsible if their adult children CHOOSE to leave the church. BUT, they may well be partially responsible for setting up the factors that helped those children CHOOSE to leave.
Sadly, all too many “Catholic” parents have done exactly that. My in-laws are a perfect example. They are muti-millionaires, who believed that $5.00 a week was more than sufficient to give to the church. They never prayed at home, never had any family religious observances other than weekly Mass, and once their children reached mid-teen ages, they stopped even going to Parish functions…
They showed no charity to anyone, including their adopted daughter who sustained a very severe spinal cord injury at the age of 19 (when people did not become legal adults till the age of 21), and who was still living at home.
They refused to utilize their health insurance program for her (it had a $5,000 maximum deductible - lifetime!), but insisted that she MUST pursue a workers compensation claim against the Catholic Summer Camp where she was injured. The camp disputed the claim, and it took 21 months (and winning at the California Supreme Court) before her first surgery was finally performed. A Priest (a financial director for the Archdiocese) was convicted of perjury for his testimony in her legal case.
The Church fought against making ANY payment to her, and forced her to go to the California Supreme Court twice (she won both times, and set two major decisions under California Workers Compensation law). She finally settled for virtually nothing, because the church was going to make her go back to the Supreme Court again. After 7 years of fighting against her own church (with her parents telling her how evil she was to be doing this), she finally settled for $20,000, no lifetime medical benefits and a lifetime in a wheelchair.
Their eldest child, their natural born son, left the church while his sister was being denied care by his parents, and by the church. Their youngest child (the biological sister of the injured daughter and also adopted ) was horribly abused by her husband, and her parents told her that “you made your bed, now lie in it”.
Both of those adult children stated that they could NOT support any church that treated their sister the way that she had been treated. One of them also stated that seeing what “Catholics are really like opened my eyes about what this whole church is about”.
The mother (father died in 1997) simply cannot understand why 2 of her three children refuse to have anything to do with the Catholic Church. She still blames her middle child for “driving your brother and sister out of the church”.
Ironically, it is that middle child who has ALWAYS remained faithful to the Church. She had been accepted to join the Holy Cross Nuns when she sustained her injury. (Her trunk was packed, she was to go to Indiana at the beginning of September. Her accident happened on August 24th. Needless to say, those Nuns would NOT allow her to join their community after her injury).
That middle child also happens to be my wife, and is one of the very best things that EVER happened in MY life.
No, parents can not be held totally responsible if their adult children CHOOSE to leave the church. BUT, they may well be partially responsible for setting up the factors that helped those children CHOOSE to leave.
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uxordepp
Guest
Odile, I"m not necessarily suggesting that admonishing the sinner would necessarily be appropriate in this case, but I wanted to make sure that we had the correct meaning for the phrase…
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MissRose73
Guest
My mother is a practicing Catholic, and is involved in her church in various ministries.
My father is Catholic but by choice goes only for Xmas, Easter, Funerals, Weddings etc type of things.
My sister is very much a lapsed Catholic who rarely steps into a church and its been that way since she was about 18/19 years old. My sister I believe stopped going after she left my parents’ home around age 19 as she would not be helpful with the household, attend Mass, & stop bullying others as examples. She has matured a lot since then but still does not attend Mass.
I am sure my mother (and a few others in the family who are very observant & practicing their Faith) would love it if my father and sister among a few others chose to go to church more often to be a good example to the younger generations in our family. They are adults, and will make their own decisions, and those in the family who practice our faith just have to pray for them.
My father is Catholic but by choice goes only for Xmas, Easter, Funerals, Weddings etc type of things.
My sister is very much a lapsed Catholic who rarely steps into a church and its been that way since she was about 18/19 years old. My sister I believe stopped going after she left my parents’ home around age 19 as she would not be helpful with the household, attend Mass, & stop bullying others as examples. She has matured a lot since then but still does not attend Mass.
I am sure my mother (and a few others in the family who are very observant & practicing their Faith) would love it if my father and sister among a few others chose to go to church more often to be a good example to the younger generations in our family. They are adults, and will make their own decisions, and those in the family who practice our faith just have to pray for them.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I’ll repeat the point I made above…
The Church teaches that we may or may not be culpable for the actions of others, depending upon our knowledge and intent. For a summary of this teaching, see here.
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EasterJoy
Guest
**To the OP: **You might remind the self-righteous relative of the passage that follows “Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven” which is “…Give and gifts will be given to you; a good measure, packed together, shaken down, and overflowing, will be poured into your lap. For the measure with which you measure will in return be measured out to you.” Luke 6:38
If this mother who did everything in fidelity failed, but will be judged by the measure of this cousin, then what of the souls that this cousin never even attempted to admonish or evangelize? For the Apostles were given leave to “shake the dust from their feet” with regards to towns that would not hear them. What of those towns the Apostles did not bother themselves to preach to? Which of us has not failed in that respect? Probably not this mother on her death bed. Her fortitude, even in the face of no reward, will praise her. If we condemn her, what souls won over by work we have rendered in such and untiring manner as she had shown, efforts which were not discouraged by lack of results, will rise up to praise us?
If this mother who did everything in fidelity failed, but will be judged by the measure of this cousin, then what of the souls that this cousin never even attempted to admonish or evangelize? For the Apostles were given leave to “shake the dust from their feet” with regards to towns that would not hear them. What of those towns the Apostles did not bother themselves to preach to? Which of us has not failed in that respect? Probably not this mother on her death bed. Her fortitude, even in the face of no reward, will praise her. If we condemn her, what souls won over by work we have rendered in such and untiring manner as she had shown, efforts which were not discouraged by lack of results, will rise up to praise us?
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pigpen
Guest
All your comments have been helpful to me as we journey through this difficult time. I continue to marvel at the grace of this woman as she faces her death with deep faith and trust in God. We are surrounded by beautiful graces. I see 2 of her children particularly affected by her witness. So many seeds planted, who knows how they will one day bear fruit?
With the passage of time since my conversation with the cousin, my distress over the comments has faded. In this big picture, it just doesn’t matter. It means no more to me now than the irritation of a buzzing fly. It’s just irrelevant noise. That said, I will, of course, keep the cousin in my prayers, along with all of the family.
God bless you all.
With the passage of time since my conversation with the cousin, my distress over the comments has faded. In this big picture, it just doesn’t matter. It means no more to me now than the irritation of a buzzing fly. It’s just irrelevant noise. That said, I will, of course, keep the cousin in my prayers, along with all of the family.
God bless you all.
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fitlibrarian
Guest
My 20 year old son left the faith a year and a half ago. He is an atheist. Just this last weekend our 17 year old son told us that he began questioning his faith while at World Youth Day (last August in Madrid Spain). He now no longer wants to attend Mass. I am heart broken. We feel like we did a good job with our parenting. Our boys attended Public school. My husband and I are both public educators and when our sons started school my husband had not joined the church. They attended PSR and when the high school years approached we considered Catholic High School. We decided against it because where I am from public school families are looked down upon and we were afraid our boys would be “left out” (as they had on a Stubenville trip). We then moved to another Parish with an active youth program. The boys attended CYO and my youngest son did go to World Youth Day. They started “fighting” going saying the Catholic High School kids would have nothing to do with them. I went one time (to provide a meal) and I did see what they had experienced. When my oldest went to college I told our youngest he no longer had to go to CYO (due to the exclusion and the fact that he had been to WYD). Now a a year later he is leaving the church.
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Joe_5859
Guest
My prayers are with you and your family. It is a tough thing for any parent to go through. It seems that the Catholic youth group didn’t help by excluding them. Just keep praying for St. Monica’s intercession. She prayed for her wayward son for 30 years and he eventually came around and became one of our Church’s greatest saints (St. Augustine, of course). Unfortunately, lots of kids their age drift away. Keep praying that God will draw them back.
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ThyKingdomCome
Guest
All parents are responsible for their sins. We’ve all sinned in our parenting one way or another, and we will be held accountable for those sins. If we’ve received sacramental forgiveness, then we will likely still be held accountable in purgatory.
Poor behavior or outcome of a child is not proof of a parent’s sins, but it certainly can result from a parent’s sins. OTOH, good behavior and outcomes of children are not proof of good parenting. But it often is a result of it. So it is reasonable to look at the actions of an adult and make some educated guesses about some of the parenting choices that might have led to their situation, but it is important to recognize that we won’t always be correct.
I believe that my parents will answer for their part in endangering the faith of their children, even though they tried to do what they thought was best. I don’t know how culpable God considers them, seeing as I’m not God and can’t see the state of their soul and all the mitigating factors that went into their parenting decisions. I believe I will answer for my part in my children’s faith formation - I am still in the midst of it, so it is yet to be seen what the results will be. And while I recognize that they have free will, I know that my role as the primary educator and formator of their conscience, gives me a large portion of responsibility for the state of their conscience as they begin to exercise that free will when they are adults.
So my answer to this person would be that it is possible that her mother made mistakes in her attempts to pass on her faith to her children. And it is possible that her mistakes were sinful. It is also possible that she did not sin or fail in this regard, and her children’s failure to accept their faith is purely a result of their own free will. Those who are familiar with her and the way she raised her children can speculate, but no one knows for sure how many sins against her children’s faith she will have to answer for, and how culpable she might be for them. I wouldn’t be inclined to judge her in that way. I also wouldn’t be inclined to judge her in a positive light either.
It is simply not our place to judge. Praying for mercy for her would be the best thing. And praying that she continues in her last moments to seek forgiveness for whatever sins she still needs to seek forgiveness for.
Poor behavior or outcome of a child is not proof of a parent’s sins, but it certainly can result from a parent’s sins. OTOH, good behavior and outcomes of children are not proof of good parenting. But it often is a result of it. So it is reasonable to look at the actions of an adult and make some educated guesses about some of the parenting choices that might have led to their situation, but it is important to recognize that we won’t always be correct.
I believe that my parents will answer for their part in endangering the faith of their children, even though they tried to do what they thought was best. I don’t know how culpable God considers them, seeing as I’m not God and can’t see the state of their soul and all the mitigating factors that went into their parenting decisions. I believe I will answer for my part in my children’s faith formation - I am still in the midst of it, so it is yet to be seen what the results will be. And while I recognize that they have free will, I know that my role as the primary educator and formator of their conscience, gives me a large portion of responsibility for the state of their conscience as they begin to exercise that free will when they are adults.
So my answer to this person would be that it is possible that her mother made mistakes in her attempts to pass on her faith to her children. And it is possible that her mistakes were sinful. It is also possible that she did not sin or fail in this regard, and her children’s failure to accept their faith is purely a result of their own free will. Those who are familiar with her and the way she raised her children can speculate, but no one knows for sure how many sins against her children’s faith she will have to answer for, and how culpable she might be for them. I wouldn’t be inclined to judge her in that way. I also wouldn’t be inclined to judge her in a positive light either.
It is simply not our place to judge. Praying for mercy for her would be the best thing. And praying that she continues in her last moments to seek forgiveness for whatever sins she still needs to seek forgiveness for.
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kkroupa44
Guest
I have a similar issue, but my teen is stating that at, 17 years old, he does not want to be confirmed. Classes started soon which has hightened this issue. He does not want to be catholic and he should have the freedom to decide what religion he wants to be a part of. Unfortuantely, his statement is the same as I heard from his father for years.
I have several other kids, that is I give a choice to one, then the others will follow or expect the same. The fighting is getting old and like someone else stated, we can’t be responsible at some point. I just believe as long as they are in school, I have a obligation to require him to go.
Any help is appreciated in how I approach this.
I have several other kids, that is I give a choice to one, then the others will follow or expect the same. The fighting is getting old and like someone else stated, we can’t be responsible at some point. I just believe as long as they are in school, I have a obligation to require him to go.
Any help is appreciated in how I approach this.
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kdub432
Guest
Marie682’s catechism quote is helpful.
we cannot judge if someone has lived up to their duties for child rearing, that’s God’s place to do so.
we cannot judge if someone has lived up to their duties for child rearing, that’s God’s place to do so.
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