When are thoughts sins?

[Valley_Lily]

I am veeery confused on the teaching of sinful thoughts. I know the basics; thought used for inordinate sexual arousal, and thoughts that are directly planning to do something, but what about other times? For example, this is one that I wonder about. In my stepmother’s criminal justice class, they were watching a few episodes of Forensic Files, and were invited to think about how it’s scientifically impossible to get away with murder. When she got home, she told me about her class discussions, and then I wondered for myself just how one WOULD go about trying to get away with murder. I of course have NO intention of ever committing a murder, but would the hypothetical situation of contemplating getting away with murder constitute sin?

Or what of thoughts that bring emotional pleasure rather than sinful? For example, imagining, vageuly, my wedding night with my future husband doesn’t arouse me, but makes me feel emotionally happy in anticipation of sharing that with him. The thoughts are somewhat sexual…does this constitute sinful thoughts?

And what of authors, those who craft stories in their heads? They may often be writing about sinful behaviors, even if the ending is a moral one. Could their thoughts be sins?

Or am i just being oversensitive?

 

[LilyM]

In the first scenario, you were thinking purely as an intellectual or philosophical exercise, based on your discussion with your mother. Priests who deal every day with the sins of others have to think about them in a similar way, in order to do their job. So do students of moral theology who may not put their learning to practical use as priests do. So there would seem to be nothing wrong in what you’re doing there.

In the second scenario - you seem to have answered your own question already. If the thoughts were truly, as you said, about emotional rather than sexual pleasure, then why on earth would they be sinful? Christ talked about lustful and sinful thoughts, not at all about thoughts that were pleasurable in other non-sinful ways.

You do understand that it’s not sinful to think about emotional pleasure, right? For example, if you were thinking about a party that you’re looking forward to, or remembering a great party you went to last week? Do you think THOSE sort of pleasurable thoughts are sinful? If not then why are you asking about yours again?

If you are worried about whether a behaviour is sinful, the best thing to do is discuss it with your priest. Remember, though, that mortal sin requires full knowledge, which you don’t have (and wouldn’t unless you HAD discussed a doubtful matter with your priest), so you need not be unduly concerned for the time being.

 

[Bookcat]

Remember, though, that mortal sin requires full knowledge, which you don’t have (and wouldn’t unless you HAD discussed a doubtful matter with your priest), so you need not be unduly concerned for the time being.

i would not say that full knowledge would be characterized by if one had or had not discussed something with a priest…

one can have full knowledge without such of course…

 

[Bookcat]

I am veeery confused on the teaching of sinful thoughts. I know the basics; thought used for inordinate sexual arousal, and thoughts that are directly planning to do something, but what about other times? For example, this is one that I wonder about. In my stepmother’s criminal justice class, they were watching a few episodes of Forensic Files, and were invited to think about how it’s scientifically impossible to get away with murder. When she got home, she told me about her class discussions, and then I wondered for myself just how one WOULD go about trying to get away with murder. I of course have NO intention of ever committing a murder, but would the hypothetical situation of contemplating getting away with murder constitute sin?

Some thoughts are sinful…lustful ones…those of disordered anger…hatred…etc

But to simply think about a crime or how a crime could be committed…or even enjoy reading a *fiction *story or movie about robbing a bank…is not sinful …

unless it becomes a near occasion of sin for you perhaps…or one consents to it in a sinful way …(you know --to do it or something like that…)

Sexual things are of course more sensitive…one must take greater care if one has some good reason to think about sexual things …such as the study of moral theology etc …and take the necessary precautions so they do not become sinful thoughts…

as for emotionally thinking of how you will be happy with ones husband…(not sure I understand entirely) of course I would not think of the sexual matters here…but as to a general emotional thinking…not sure there is any sin there…but it is difficult to comment …but you of course can discuss this with your confessor…

but I will warn you that I would not engage even in innocent thoughts here…for it can set you up for disappointment when the day comes…for usually things are not as one expects.

…it is better to wait and let the day be the day

 

[camerong]

I think you should think of these things in terms of intention. I think its absurd to say that its wrong to think, even in detail, about sexual matters. If you are, say, figuring out what arrangements need to be made or thinking about what makes you the most nervous or ways you can alleviate that anxiety, etc., its okay. Even if those thoughts cause you arousal, that does not make them wrong, though it may be appropriate at that point to revisit the issue with a clearer head. What would be sinful if you sat down to fantasize, with the intent of getting aroused. By the same token, if you intend to think about murdering and getting away with it to take joy or pride in your power over another’s life, that might become a sin. Ultimately, the issue is INTENT.

 

[jegow]

The thoughts are somewhat sexual…does this constitute sinful thoughts?

I would say that if anyone is having thoughts, even that are a little bit sexual, that the thought has become inappropriate and possibly sinful. Even if the thoughts are not extremely terrible, it really becomes a form of sexual fantasy in anyway the person is allowing their mind to go places it should not.

Trying to distinguish between emotional pleasure versus other forms does not hold that well since we could say that the actual giving in the marital act is what brings about any emotional pleasure. Thoughts that center on that emotional giving are probably hard to separate from the physical giving that brings those emotions.

From the Catechism:
2520 Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail

• by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;

• by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;

• by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;

• by prayer: I thought that continence arose from one’s own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know . . . that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.

I think in the case of impure thoughts a person does not need to ask if whether they were fantasizing over emotional vs. physical pleasure but whether what they were entertaining is something that their minds should have been focussing on at all. We know the answer to that because of God’s commands and especially the new commandment to love. Even if it is thoughts of your future husband and the wedding night you also have to realize that you are not married and you probably have no idea of who your husband will be. Why would you want to justify thoughts of this if you yourself in real life aren’t there yet. I could see if you were months away from getting married that this would be on your mind more but at this time I say the best thing for you would be to keep your mind pure and keep it from thoughts that are not part of your life right now.

 

[shaun23]

I agree with the posts above. As an aside I would also add that our thoughts are the “rudder” of the ship. Our ship being ourselves and our course being our spritual journey. The rudder is mostly hidden, but the direction of the ship is apparent.

If thought are questionable, consider discussing them with someone you trust. To shed light on your thoughts is helpful in determining whether or not one should be meditating on them.

 

[Valley_Lily]

Thank you all for the responses guys. I think I’m starting to get it.

I think most of my confusion lays in the realm of art, film and fiction, fantasy and daydream. Fiction is not real life, I understand, but to those who create words and images, they’re in effect creating a tiny sliver of a new world, and if there is sin in this world, if the characters of an author sin (not excessively, like writing excessively sexual material, mind you,) does that make the author’s thoughts sinful?

In the same vein, in terms of fiction and art, is dwelling on such things sinful thoughts? Take, like, Silence of the Lambs, or V for Vendetta. Both films with highly questionable morality being displayed, or characters who are deeply sinful, like Lector. I know how the church teaches that fiction and art themselves are generally not sin, but can LEAD to sin. Well, if you greatly enjoy a particular work, enjoy watching it several times, or idly think of the characters, what they did, why, is this taking an interest in sin? I think it’s called being in 'fandom", where you take an interest in discussin, exploring, or creating written works or art for a film or series. On one hand I think that exploring a work like this can actually help someone see things analytically, to actually talk about the moral dilemmas and such in the work, but at the same time, I wonder if that could fall in line with sinful thoughts.

I know I’m probably sounding very scrupulous here, but I’m a fairly new Catholic, and I’ve lived an almost entirely secular life before this. I know few Catholics, so…I’m just very confused about this.

 

[shondrea]

Well, I’m no expert, but here’s what I assume. The guidelines used for film or literature would hold true for those writing the books. A book containing sinful choices is not in itself sinful. But if the author was endangering his soul by writing the book, we surely could not be able to read something that contributes to another’s sin.

Ah yes. I believe fandom is the word you’re looking for. I’m into fandom. I don’t watch much television at all, or movies. I get into one series for ages. Right now, it’s an anime about an exiled prince raging a rebellion against his own empire. This show PERSONIFIES the debate of “do the ends justify the means?” and shows every side of the argument, 6 ways to Sunday. (ironically enough, it strongly resembles V for Vendetta). It just BEGS for analysis, for discussion. The main character is of the opinion that, since they are in a horrible war, that any means should be used to bring down the enemy. Many of his choices are just. Many are NOT. But it seems your question is asking, does thinking about the sin in books constitute sinful thought?

I don’t think so. In fact, I think it can help form your conscience.

I don’t know how much into fandom you are, or if you just know of it casually, but when I do fandom, it’s hardcore. The show I’m into now is about the only one I watch. seeing it so many times, exploring it, making up scenario’s about the characters, exploring their pasts, that helped me to understand all the sides of the morality debate within the show. If I had seen it only once, I’d probably agree with the main character, that the ends can justify the means. But, spending my hobby time over the last year poking it with a stick, I’ve realized that a lot of his choices are NOT moral. This “dwelling” on sinful behavior is not a sin. It’s exploring sin, seeing what sin is.

Now, suppose I was in this fandom and I was thinking about his decision to sacrifice civilians is moral. I could easily say, It’s war, and sacrifices must be made. But “dwelling” on the sin of killing, having the “thought” of this sin in my head lead me to the answer that even if it was war, these were innocents, and I could not condone the action.

So ANYway, i hope I understood your question alright. To contemplate, think about, analyze or even write about the sin of a fictional character in a fictional world is not “sinful thought”, insomuch as thinking about does not mean agree. In fact, if you DIDN"T analyze, mull over, and think about what you were watching, sin and all, THAT’S when you’d be in trouble!

Everyone may feel free to correct my most likely messed up theology as they wish. I know, like, nothing about sin in thoughts, I just know a lot about storytelling.

 

[Catchy_Username]

Thoughts being a sin reminds me a lot of thoughtcrime from Orwell’s 1984. Why are people allowed to anticipate psychological happiness with regards to sex, but not anticipate pleasure?

 

[Valley_Lily]

anyone else?

 

[LilyM]

Thoughts being a sin reminds me a lot of thoughtcrime from Orwell’s 1984. Why are people allowed to anticipate psychological happiness with regards to sex, but not anticipate pleasure?

Because if the ACT of premarital sex is a sin then surely it makes sense, since we want to avoid sin, to avoid THINKING about taking sexual pleasure with someone we are not yet married to. Such thoughts are what are called ‘near occasions of sin’ - in other words they are reasonably likely to tempt us to indulge in premarital sex. Do you know anyone who has had premarital sex who wasn’t helped to the deed by first dwelling on it in thought?

Why would you want to longingly dwell on thoughts of murdering your mother, knowing that such murder would lead to your criminal punishment and not wanting to do the deed for that reason if no other, if you knew full well that those thoughts were highly likely to lead you to the unwanted deed of murdering her?

 

[CD_Michels]

One has to be careful when trying to figure out how close you can get to a line without crossing it… This is very dangerous territory!!! And one that the devil tries to get us to toe up to, since it is easier to tempt us to take one little step to cross the line, then a half dozen strides!

A better line of thought would be to focus on things you know are NOT sinful. Let your thoughts be focused on God.

When trying to figure out how much of secular society you can partake in without ‘sinning’, think of it this way: Is this material bringing me closer to God? if the answer is no, you may be best to find something else. Now that is a tough line to follow for those that are very use to partaking in all of secular society. Another way of looking at thoughts, movies, books, etc. that is a little less strict is: that if you have to ask whether this is a sin, maybe it is… and you should avoid it.

People will argue from time to time about whether movies, music and the like are sinful in and of themselves. The BETTER question is, “how does this movie, music, etc. effect my thoughts?” If a movie makes you think about lustful things, watching that movie is a sin for you.

Now for the authors of those films, books, songs, etc. the morality lies in their intent. Most all authors are trying to tell a story or get a particular point of view across to their audience. If this point is not a moral point or leads people astray from the truth, that is a sin. This is a particularly important thing for authors to know: that they are held accountable if their product leads others into sin!

Many people when looking at what the Catholic Church teaches, focus too heavily on the 'shall not’s. This sort of focus is destructive to your Faith formation. The Church teaches that one should focus on the positives the Church brings to your life. Focus on making God the center of your life. A close union with God is what will bring the greatest joy in your life and produce the greatest fruit! In your Faith life, I hope you desire to bring forth good fruit. The quality of our fruit (actions) is directly related to those things we spend our time thinking about. And the greatest influence over our thoughts is those things we choose to read and watch. If we fill our minds with things of God, our thoughts will be on God and our actions will be those of love and goodness.

 

[CD_Michels]

Since you strike me as the literary type, I would suggest you read a book by C.S. Lewis called “The Screwtape Letters.” It is a fictional story that paints a pretty good picture of how the devil can use our thoughts to lead us astray.