When did all Christians start agreeing that Jesus is God the Son?

[mpartyka]

But you forget he was resurrected into Mary, so he wasn’t born from adultery into Mary, but from the Spirit by resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1. According to you, Jesus was originally conceived in adultery by David and Bathsheba.
2. Are you implying that resurrection means reincarnation?

–Mike

 

[mpartyka]

Wikipedia isn’t the most reliable resource in the world, you know, but anyway…

He chose the Arianizing bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia as his baptizer.

1. Eusebius was himself a signatory of the Nicene Creed. Many Arian bishops signed the Creed, intending to overturn it with a future council. So perhaps Constantine believed that Eusebius was a faithful Trinitarian.
2. Baptisms done with the proper form are considered valid even if the baptism is done by a heretic, so Eusebius’ being an Arian wouldn’t have affected the validity of Constantine’s baptism.

Arians and the Meletians soon regained nearly all of the rights they had lost, and consequently, Arianism continued to spread and to cause division in the Church during the remainder of the fourth century. Almost immediately, Eusebius of Nicomedia, an Arian bishop and cousin to Constantine I, used his influence at court to sway Constantine’s favor from the orthodox Nicene bishops to the Arians. Eustathius of Antioch was deposed and exiled in 330. Athanasius, who had succeeded Alexander as Bishop of Alexandria, was deposed by the First Synod of Tyre in 335 and Marcellus of Ancyra followed him in 336. Arius himself returned to Constantinople to be readmitted into the Church, but died shortly before he could be received. Constantine died the next year, after finally receiving baptism from Arian Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedi , and “with his passing the first round in the battle after the Council of Nicaea was ended.”[34]

This part of the article concerns what happened after the Council of Nicea, not during the Council, when Constantine was squarely on the side of the Trinitarian bishops, even as the article you quoted says:

Finally, he is said to be “from the substance of the Father,” in direct opposition to Arianism. Some ascribe the term Consubstantial, i.e., “of the same substance” (of the Father), to Constantine who, on this particular point, may have chosen to exercise his authority.

So, however Constantine ended his life, one can still say he was an ally of Trinitiarian Christianity when it mattered most.

 

[NanaR]

With regard to all the discourse re Arianism and the Council, the point that stands out to me is this:

Jesus is still and has always been in charge of His Church.

Left to themselves, men will quibble and discourse continuously in an effort to prove themselves right and someone else wrong. The people of that time were no different than the people today in that respect.

Whatever the spread of Arianism before, during, or after the Council of Nicea, when we look at Christianity today we see that the vast majority of those claiming to be followers of Christ both believe and teach the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. You have to go to the outside fringe, to restorationist groups like the JWs, Mormons, and Seventh Day Adventists to find support for Arianism rather than the Nicean Creed. The Jesus Only groups follow Modalism, another early heresy, thus placing themselves on the “fringe” as well.

When I, as a former JW, was trying to sort all of this out, I considered it this way: Have the JWs been right about prophecy? NO Have the JWs been right about the Great Apostasy? NO Have the JWs been right about the immortality of the human soul and the destiny of righteous mankind? NO

So why the ***%!@ would I assume that they would be right about the very nature of God?

Ask yourself that question about the other “fringe” groups that reject the Holy Trinity, and you may come to the same conclusion.

One thing I have wondered about in this regard, though, is why Protestantism continued to believe and teach the Holy Trinity after adopting a Sola Scriptura viewpoint. This discussion and others have made it clear to me that, while the Bible certainly does not contradict the doctrine of the Holy Trinity (as it could not), the Bible alone does not provide a clear and specific definition of the doctrine.

It has fallen to the Church, lead by the Holy Spirit, to provide this definition which many Christians proclaim regularly.

I have known Protestant ministers who started investigating Catholicism based on their recognition of this fact.

MH84, great thread!

Pax,

Ruth

 

[mpartyka]

I believe that it more commonly believed that the letters to the Thessalonians were written first.

That could be. I was given a chart a long time ago that had 1 Cor first, or maybe I’m misremembering. The Blue Letter Bible’s chronology places 1 & 2 Thess only 4-5 years before 1 Cor, so there’s not a whole lot of difference.

I can’t see references to Paul believing that Christ was God in these verses.

If “to know the mind of God” equals “to have the mind of Christ” equals “to have the Spirit of God for your teacher,” I would think that shows some sort of equivalence.

Also, St. Paul says that the Israelites tempted Christ in the wilderness. In Numbers, where the event is recorded, the Israelites complain against YHWH. (Likewise, in Hebrews the author says that it is the Holy Ghost speaking in the Psalm which reads, “Your fathers tempted me in the wilderness.”)

–Mike

 

[mpartyka]

The BIG thing Mr. Partyka’s article accomplished with me (as a former JW) was that it proved the blatant intellectual dishonesty of the Watchtower organization. Ever since reading his article, I have been searching the Watchtower publications for other misquotes and missing references. They are full of them!!

Ruth,

I’m planning on publishing an eBook version of my article soon and was wondering if I might use this as a testimonial. (Also, if anyone else has read my book and found it helpful, and was willing to offer a testimonial, please let me know.) If it’s okay for me to use this, could you please drop me a line via PM and let me know? I would need to get your full name and approval. Thanks!

–Mike