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AlNg
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The Pope, being the head of the papal states, had the authority to change or to speak against any immoral or unjust laws?
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ltwin
Guest
The attitude expressed in phil19034’s post is what baffles me.
I’ve made comments on certain threads in the past about everyone in “the church” being called to participate in the administration of discipline and to make disciples in all nations, etc. It never fails but I’m “reminded” by a Catholic poster that whenever “the church” is mentioned in those verses (for example, Matthew 18:17, 28:19), the Apostles and their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church, are being referred to. So, as a lay person I cannot claim to be “the church” for purposes of exercising ecclesiastical authority.
Yet, as soon as its convenient, the Pope and bishops (who exercised civil authority in Rome and surrounding areas) are suddenly not representatives of the Church and do not reflect upon the church that they lead. What???
How can the Papal States and the prince-bishoprics in other parts of Europe (a prince-bishopric was a territory whose secular ruler was a bishop or archbishop) not be connected to the church? Why shouldn’t bishops and popes be held accountable for what they did and did not do in their capacities as secular princes?
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pnewton
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These two statements are not the same, by the way.
I think it important to read the first part of the document. What is being listed are not sins, but a condemnation of errors being spread by Martin Luther. Now error can mean more than one thing. It may be something false, but it may also be something imprudent. An error might simply be teaching something not revealed. For example, if I in my schism started preaching Jesus was going to return on March 15, 2027, that would be an error. If that was the actual date the Jesus blew the whistle, I still would have been in error teaching something like that.
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phil19034
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Of course the Pope had the authority to change and speak out against executing heretics in his role as head of Papal States.phil19034:
The Pope, being the head of the papal states, had the authority to change or to speak against any immoral or unjust laws?
But the Popes didn’t, just like Protestants executed Catholics for being Catholic.
The use of Capital Punishment was primarily forced on murders and other captial offenses. But for some reason, blasphemy/ heresy laws had been capital offenses since before Christ.
That’s doesn’t mean it was ok, but it happened in all religions - including Protestants killing Catholics.
I will never say Popes & Bishops were right in allowing it (or even ording it) to happen.
It was anti-Christ and against the mission of the Church.
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AlNg
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It did? I don’t recall it ever happening in Buddhism where they executed non-believers because of their denial of Buddhism.
But the Protestant religion is not the true religion. Catholicism on the other hand, is the one true religion and being such should it not be held to a higher standard than false religions?
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phil19034
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@AINg
Let’s recap… where did I ever say that Popes were correct? I didn’t.
Where did the Popes ever say dogmatically it was necessary to kill
heretics? They didn’t.
In hindsight, the leaders of the Church were WRONG. I don’t know how many
more times I can say that.
Papal Infallibility does not cover these things. If the Pope kills people,
sleeps with men and women, and does a ton of other sins, it doesn’t mean
the Church teaches that.
A lot of Popes are not Saints for a good reason…
Just like the President of the United States cannot overrule the
Constitution (even if he may try), the Pope cannot overrule Christ’s
Mystical Church (even if he might try).
Papal Infallibility does not protect the Church from electing power hungry,
murderous Popes.
Finally, we have to remember that the notion of “the punishment must fit
the crime” was not really put into law until the founding of the United
States.
Human society has always believed that the Death Penalty is a moral & licit
way to protect society from hard and civil unrest. Heretics often brought
civil unrest.
The purpose of the Death Penalty is to protect the people from those who
are still a danger to society even when imprisoned.
The differences today are:
every heresy was a capital crime. It was more about the execution of
traitors and insurrectionists who were using heresy to justify their cause
Let’s recap… where did I ever say that Popes were correct? I didn’t.
Where did the Popes ever say dogmatically it was necessary to kill
heretics? They didn’t.
In hindsight, the leaders of the Church were WRONG. I don’t know how many
more times I can say that.
Papal Infallibility does not cover these things. If the Pope kills people,
sleeps with men and women, and does a ton of other sins, it doesn’t mean
the Church teaches that.
A lot of Popes are not Saints for a good reason…
Just like the President of the United States cannot overrule the
Constitution (even if he may try), the Pope cannot overrule Christ’s
Mystical Church (even if he might try).
Papal Infallibility does not protect the Church from electing power hungry,
murderous Popes.
Finally, we have to remember that the notion of “the punishment must fit
the crime” was not really put into law until the founding of the United
States.
Human society has always believed that the Death Penalty is a moral & licit
way to protect society from hard and civil unrest. Heretics often brought
civil unrest.
The purpose of the Death Penalty is to protect the people from those who
are still a danger to society even when imprisoned.
The differences today are:
- heretics don’t create much civil unrest today (because most of the West
is a pluralistic society). - we believe that punishment must fit the crime
- AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HERTICS TODAY ARE NOT CAUSE FOR POLITICAL
INSURRECTION - which was typically the case in centuries past (including
the Papal States)
every heresy was a capital crime. It was more about the execution of
traitors and insurrectionists who were using heresy to justify their cause
- which eventually happened with the Protestant revolt
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phil19034
Guest
@AINg
BTW - a simple Google search will show you that Buddhism did execute
heretics (mostly heretical monks). They were often beheaded to attempt to
scare all of the heretics out of the monasteries.
All religions have had times were they felt they need to purge themselves
from heretics.
Unlike other religions, the Catholic Church made use of Councils to combat
pure heresy. We didn’t go around killing heretical monks like in Buddhism.
However, when a heresy became a public threat (or at least a perceived
public threat) to the secular state & society, becoming a temporal threat
(not just a spiritual threat) – that’s when it became a crime.
Again - we need to put this into context, because it’s a context that
really doesn’t exist anymore in the West. But these temporally dangous
heretics do exist today in Islam.
I pray I’m making a little sense
BTW - a simple Google search will show you that Buddhism did execute
heretics (mostly heretical monks). They were often beheaded to attempt to
scare all of the heretics out of the monasteries.
All religions have had times were they felt they need to purge themselves
from heretics.
Unlike other religions, the Catholic Church made use of Councils to combat
pure heresy. We didn’t go around killing heretical monks like in Buddhism.
However, when a heresy became a public threat (or at least a perceived
public threat) to the secular state & society, becoming a temporal threat
(not just a spiritual threat) – that’s when it became a crime.
Again - we need to put this into context, because it’s a context that
really doesn’t exist anymore in the West. But these temporally dangous
heretics do exist today in Islam.
I pray I’m making a little sense
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AlNg
Guest
When did that occur with the Bahai religion?
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phil19034
Guest
This will be my last post to you. You are picking at straws now. You obviously want to argue more than understand or acknowledge my general point - which is there is a difference between the Church (aka the Body of the Christ) and the Clergy.phil19034:
When did that occur with the Bahai religion?
In regards to the Bahai faith, it was founded in the mid 1800s AD and has never been a majority religion of any state, nor the state religion of any state.
To execute heretics, the religion must be the religion of the state.
History of the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi!
I think that part of the argument against the Church always falls away into that special “blame-the-Church-for-all-the-ills-of-the-world while giving carte blanche to everyone and everything out there.”
It is the reason why I engage such topics since even “Catholics” focus so much on the “sins” of the Church while fully ignoring the horrors and mayhem perpetrated by those outside the Church, even when these horrors and the mayhem is current:
Muslims And Buddhists Work Together To Destroy 1500 Christians
By Ted on June 28, 2014 in Featured, General
SHOEBAT EXCLUSIVE
By Theodore Shoebat
Muslims and Buddhists are working together to destroy the lives of 1500 Christians.
Peaceful and loving Buddhist have been killing Christians on and off with little or no repercussions for their violence.
Here’s how old this event is reported to be:
.2nd Week of June, 2014 Sri-Lanka Started Arresting the Pakistani Christian Asylum seekers, without arrest warrants from native country through Interpol.
While I fully concur with you that the Church must be held to a higher Justice/Righteousness than the rest of the world, it is a complete construct to whitewash the acts against the Church and society when agents other than representatives of the Church are at fault.
Maran atha!
Angel
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The Tokugawa Shogunate that killed all the Catholics in Japan was very Buddhist, I thought. Now one could argue that this was politicians not following the teachings of the Buddha, but Jesus Christ didn’t advocate burning heretics either and a lot of that was also done by political operatives purporting to be Catholic or Protestant Christian.
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abucs
Guest
Hello niceatheist,
what makes you say Bruno was out of his mind?
From memory (vaguely) I think I read that he was very anti - society.
If I am remembering correctly could you give your perspective on this and do you think this was an indication of him being out of his mind (so to speak).
Thank you.
what makes you say Bruno was out of his mind?
From memory (vaguely) I think I read that he was very anti - society.
If I am remembering correctly could you give your perspective on this and do you think this was an indication of him being out of his mind (so to speak).
Thank you.
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niceatheist
Guest
I think he was brilliant, and pretty nuts, because otherwise he would have known he was dooming himself.
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IWantGod
Guest
I can’t believe Christians use to execute heretics. And we are the ones that say God is love. No wonder the world hates the Catholic Church…
It really pains me.
It really pains me.
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jcrichton
Guest
Here’s the problem with that scenario… people used to do great many awful things… like working people till they dropped; this reference is quite inert in todays vernacular–the reality then was that people were forced to remain at their work station/location even when they were too ill, old or not old enough… people would literally drop dead from hard-work, poor/none nutrition, neglect, abuse, over-work…
It was the same Church that you state that people “hate” that made it possible for the betterment in the world’s value system.
Yes, there were errors committed but society did not become a “nice” place just because ‘men of goodwill’ decided to stop exploiting and murdering their neighbors/competitors.
Here’s a little known fact: Universities and Hospitals were created not by the states but by the Church and Catholic-God-fearing men and women.
Here’s another… women’s lib? It was built upon the sweat, tears, and blood or Catholic Nuns who would face both Clerical and secular rulers who were opposed to allow them to form communities where women were trained beyond the ‘barefoot and pregnant’ social mandates.
There is so much that is not credited to the Church (read: The Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization–videos of this series is also found on-line: Videos of the Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization
…as for those “good” states… they not only killed in the name of God but they used God as the excuse to raze their enemies or raid their countrymen’s lands, businesses and women.
Maran atha!
Angel
It was the same Church that you state that people “hate” that made it possible for the betterment in the world’s value system.
Yes, there were errors committed but society did not become a “nice” place just because ‘men of goodwill’ decided to stop exploiting and murdering their neighbors/competitors.
Here’s a little known fact: Universities and Hospitals were created not by the states but by the Church and Catholic-God-fearing men and women.
Here’s another… women’s lib? It was built upon the sweat, tears, and blood or Catholic Nuns who would face both Clerical and secular rulers who were opposed to allow them to form communities where women were trained beyond the ‘barefoot and pregnant’ social mandates.
There is so much that is not credited to the Church (read: The Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization–videos of this series is also found on-line: Videos of the Catholic Church: Builder of Civilization
…as for those “good” states… they not only killed in the name of God but they used God as the excuse to raze their enemies or raid their countrymen’s lands, businesses and women.
Maran atha!
Angel
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IWantGod
Guest
If i thought the Catholic Church was a completely corrupt evil organisation i would not be a Catholic. I’m well aware of the good that has been done by its Catholic members. However it does bother me when somebody correctly and justly points their figure at church leaders and say that’s evil, because they are right and it pains me…
It pains me because it turns people away from the faith and clouds the good that the church has done. Our sin brings harm to the gospel, even more so the sins of our leaders.
The very title of this thread is disturbing to me. Perhaps an increasingly secular society is both a punishment and a grace.
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jcrichton
Guest
I concur with you that evil is evil, regardless on who/where it takes place.
What I meant to convey was that emphasizing errors/evil and ignoring everything good is not the answer.
The mind set is truly demonstrated by the title of this thread… Scriptures tells us not to repay evil with evil; yet, we know from the reality in which the world exists that people, including Catholic Clerics, have gone to the “dark-side of the force” and have committed themselves to evil/sin.
However, it is a poor excuse to hold such error of members of the Church as the rule for why people reject God.
People reject God because man wants to be his own authority.
Errors committed by and in the Church only gives them ammunition to hold/use as the ‘cause’ why they reject the Church/God.
Yet, I promise you that even if not a single “Catholic” would ever commit even the most simple of venial sins the world would still look for an excuse not to submit its will to Gods!
I’ve just came from another thread where I shared Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus:
Maran atha!
Angel
What I meant to convey was that emphasizing errors/evil and ignoring everything good is not the answer.
The mind set is truly demonstrated by the title of this thread… Scriptures tells us not to repay evil with evil; yet, we know from the reality in which the world exists that people, including Catholic Clerics, have gone to the “dark-side of the force” and have committed themselves to evil/sin.
However, it is a poor excuse to hold such error of members of the Church as the rule for why people reject God.
People reject God because man wants to be his own authority.
Errors committed by and in the Church only gives them ammunition to hold/use as the ‘cause’ why they reject the Church/God.
Yet, I promise you that even if not a single “Catholic” would ever commit even the most simple of venial sins the world would still look for an excuse not to submit its will to Gods!
I’ve just came from another thread where I shared Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus:
Jesus Rose from the dead… by His Own Power… and many still refuse to Believe… and others still refuse to accept Jesus’ Divinity while still claiming to Believe in God… it is the way of man; he wants full autonomy, regardless of good/evil surrounds him… he will choose whatever pleases him, instead of what Pleases God.
Maran atha!
Angel
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IWantGod
Guest
While i do agree that man is in rebellion against God, if you come across a community where the leaders are corrupt and there is oppression, it is not unreasonable to be repelled by that experience and to question the legitimacy of that movement. Of course as a believing Catholic i think it is a mistake to reject the catholic church even if the Pope is evil. Thankfully i found the “Catholic Faith” before i found the catholic authority…
Lets not pretend that evil does not harm the gospel. We can be blinded by evil for no fault of our own.
Lets not pretend that evil does not harm the gospel. We can be blinded by evil for no fault of our own.
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jcrichton
Guest
Again, I concur with you. Jesus tells us that Satan dresses up as the angel of light (wants to retain his place in God’s Kingdom, in spite of his rebelliousness); so have Catholics done throughout time; yet, the Church has remained the Pillar of Truth–these men or women who engage evil do so in their personal experience but they are not able to bring down God’s House.
While it is true that these evil doers do blemish the Sanctity of the House of God, they cannot destroy what God’s Edifice. They may even be complicit with Satan, running down the spiritual life of the Believers and the world at large… but true seekers of the Truth will forever be Led by the Holy Spirit to the Real Truth, the Real Presence of God:
Angel
While it is true that these evil doers do blemish the Sanctity of the House of God, they cannot destroy what God’s Edifice. They may even be complicit with Satan, running down the spiritual life of the Believers and the world at large… but true seekers of the Truth will forever be Led by the Holy Spirit to the Real Truth, the Real Presence of God:
Maran atha!
Angel
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IWantGod
Guest
I concur, God bless.
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