when did the orthodox church(s) add 3 Maccabees?

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We find the Orthodox are suffering the sin of nationalism as the Ecumenical Patriarch has stated. You can find articles here and their where they fight among them self due to the nationalization of their Churches.
There is that, to be sure. It is the sin called phyletism, and must be guarded against.

Truthfully, I have seen the same problem elsewhere.

In Chicago Archdiocese there were, at times, conflicts between ethnic groups which had to use the same parishes. One or the other could not wait for the chance to establish a parish of it’s own. That pattern repeated for 150 years around Chicago, and was part of the impetus for growth.

We had, a few years ago, a case where the Archbishop decided to consolidate two parishes into one. The one was an historic and very beautifully restored church originally founded for Irish, then became Italian and was finally predominantly African-American (unfortunately, there were too few parishioners to keep up the building). The other was a Mexican-American parish, actually the ‘mother’ parish of many others in the city, and it had plenty of parishioners that the bishop thought should move into the other one down the street. It required some pastoral sensitivity, but I do not doubt that both ethnic groups were experiencing ‘phyletism’, while the Cardinal was just applying ‘good’ business sense, probably assuming all Christians are the same in the eyes of God and they should not object. Emotions ran very high, the dispute hit the media and eventually the Archbishop relented.

This kind of thing was partly what caused problems like the schism of the PNCC. Having a common bishop with the other ethnic groups did not prevent abuse of the community by the bishops, nor intolerance on the part of the faithful.

Because of that tragic schism there seems to be an informal formula in place in Chicago, there is always a Polish Auxiliary Bishop in the Archdiocese.

Long ago in the local parish around here, I can remember an Asian girl at Mass, she looked Chinese to me. She must have felt completely out of place because she looked it. She fumbled trying to get past some inconsiderate people who would not slide down the pew to make room for her and then she seemed to forget where she sat after communion. I wanted to help her but she was a few pews away (and I was stuck in the middle of my pew). Before I knew it she was running out the door!..I felt so bad for her. Yes, I was probably staring at her although I didn’t realize it at the time, I could be one of many worshipers whose eyes on her made her feel uncomfortable. Little did I know that years later I would run into that same situation from time to time.

More recently, some Cistercian priests from Poland took up residence in a suburb near here. I wanted to go for a Mass, but my dear old priest friend, Father G (who also happened to be Polish, and spoke the language well) advised me not too, because they were operating outside of the bishops permission! In his opinion they were trading on the ethnic connection to support their community, attracting people from the surrounding parishes.

Nevertheless, the place has drawn new immigrant Poles like a magnet, and they have erected an awesome edifice of a church building on their property. I called, the priest answered the phone in Polish. I asked for the Mass times in English and he said, “you realize that this is a Polish church, don’t you?” I said “yes”, but I was surprised by this brusque response. Eventually, a few years ago, I was driving by on a Sunday morning and saw everyone filing in so I pulled into the lot too (I was looking for a more reverent Mass at the time), and even though the place was brand new and big, it was standing room only!

I am of Polish descent myself (but don’t speak the language) and I felt like a complete outsider, I am a suburban whitebread American in every way but my name. What made it worse was the way I felt so many mutely stared at me. You can chalk it up to my imagination of course (that could be the case), but it’s that kind of misapprehension that contributes to the problem of different sorts of people with different languages going to Mass together.

Among the Eastern Catholics in the USA, the problems between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic church are legendary. The two groups were being forced together and they knew it. From the outset one group didn’t like the fact that the sole bishop was from the other group. Rome tried to have one hierarchy for both nationalities in the United States, but actually had to give up on that idea.

(More recently there were problems in the Czech Republic of a similar nature. Mainly between the Ukrainian immigrants and the native Czechs, there were a few hi-jinks being pulled that caught peoples attention on the net.)

In the Eastern Churches that kind of problem can seem more acute, because canonically we are supposed to only have one Divine Liturgy, we are compelled to show up together as one community. There should theoretically not be a 9:00AM Amharic liturgy and an 11:00AM Swahili liturgy, so there is a tendency to bud off new parishes at an accelerated rate to accommodate the growing needs of the community.

This nationalism does happen in Orthodoxy, I will say, but it is in no way happening only there. It is part of the human condition since the Tower of Babel. It is always wrong. We know it’s wrong, and we challenge it, our bishops and Patriarchs preach against it. We can do better.

The church should always be welcoming and warm to newcomers of whatever background. It’s not just my church, and it’s not just your church…it is our church. We are the Body of Christ.
 
We find the Orthodox are suffering the sin of nationalism as the Ecumenical Patriarch has stated. You can find articles here and their where they fight among them self due to the nationalization of their Churches.
There is that, to be sure. It is the sin called phyletism, and must be guarded against.

Truthfully, I have seen the same problem elsewhere.

In Chicago Archdiocese there were, at times, conflicts between ethnic groups which had to use the same parishes. One or the other could not wait for the chance to establish a parish of it’s own. That pattern repeated for 150 years around Chicago, and was part of the impetus for growth.

We had, a few years ago, a case where the Archbishop decided to consolidate two parishes into one. The one was an historic and very beautifully restored church originally founded for Irish, then became Italian and was finally predominantly African-American (unfortunately, there were too few parishioners to keep up the building). The other was a Mexican-American parish, actually the ‘mother’ parish of many others in the city, and it had plenty of parishioners that the bishop thought should move into the other one down the street. It required some pastoral sensitivity, but I do not doubt that both ethnic groups were experiencing ‘phyletism’, while the Cardinal was just applying ‘good’ business sense, probably assuming all Christians are the same in the eyes of God and they should not object. Emotions ran very high, the dispute hit the media and eventually the Archbishop relented.

This kind of thing was partly what caused problems like the schism of the PNCC. Having a common bishop with the other ethnic groups did not prevent abuse of the community by the bishops, nor intolerance on the part of the faithful.

Because of that tragic schism there seems to be an informal formula in place in Chicago, there is always a Polish Auxiliary Bishop in the Archdiocese.

Long ago in the local parish around here, I can remember an Asian girl at Mass, she looked Chinese to me. She must have felt completely out of place because she looked it. She fumbled trying to get past some inconsiderate people who would not slide down the pew to make room for her and then she seemed to forget where she sat after communion. I wanted to help her but she was a few pews away (and I was stuck in the middle of my pew). Before I knew it she was running out the door!..I felt so bad for her. Yes, I was probably staring at her although I didn’t realize it at the time, I could be one of many worshipers whose eyes on her made her feel uncomfortable. Little did I know that years later I would run into that same situation from time to time.

More recently, some Cistercian priests from Poland took up residence in a suburb near here. I wanted to go for a Mass, but my dear old priest friend, Father G (who also happened to be Polish, and spoke the language well) advised me not too, because they were operating outside of the bishops permission! In his opinion they were trading on the ethnic connection to support their community, attracting people from the surrounding parishes.

Nevertheless, the place has drawn new immigrant Poles like a magnet, and they have erected an awesome edifice of a church building on their property. I called, the priest answered the phone in Polish. I asked for the Mass times in English and he said, “you realize that this is a Polish church, don’t you?” I said “yes”, but I was surprised by this brusque response. Eventually, a few years ago, I was driving by on a Sunday morning and saw everyone filing in so I pulled into the lot too (I was looking for a more reverent Mass at the time), and even though the place was brand new and big, it was standing room only!

I am of Polish descent myself (but don’t speak the language) and I felt like a complete outsider, I am a suburban whitebread American in every way but my name. What made it worse was the way I felt so many mutely stared at me. You can chalk it up to my imagination of course (that could be the case), but it’s that kind of misapprehension that contributes to the problem of different sorts of people with different languages going to Mass together.

Among the Eastern Catholics in the USA, the problems between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic church are legendary. The two groups were being forced together and they knew it. From the outset one group didn’t like the fact that the sole bishop was from the other group. Rome tried to have one hierarchy for both nationalities in the United States, but actually had to give up on that idea.

(More recently there were problems in the Czech Republic of a similar nature. Mainly between the Ukrainian immigrants and the native Czechs, there were a few hi-jinks being pulled that caught peoples attention on the net.)

In the Eastern Churches that kind of problem can seem more acute, because canonically we are supposed to only have one Divine Liturgy, we are compelled to show up together as one community. There should theoretically not be a 9:00AM Amharic liturgy and an 11:00AM Swahili liturgy, so there is a tendency to bud off new parishes at an accelerated rate to accommodate the growing needs of the community.

This nationalism does happen in Orthodoxy, I will say, but it is in no way happening only there. It is part of the human condition since the Tower of Babel. It is always wrong. We know it’s wrong, and we challenge it, our bishops and Patriarchs preach against it. We can do better.

The church should always be welcoming and warm to newcomers of whatever background. It’s not just my church, and it’s not just your church…it is our church. We are the Body of Christ.
 
but going from this chart (if it is correct), i see it shows the orthodox Church has 3 machabees as belonging to the canon, but not being validated irrevocably like 1 and 2 are.
I noticed that this site has a rather detailed classification about the differences among Divine, Divinely Inspired, Canonical, Canonized, Venerable, Holy and so on. It would seem that by this there are some books in the Bible that they may not view with any greater devotion (that may be a bad word in this context, but I cannot think of better right now) than we do The Imitation of Christ. Much of it seems a distinction without a difference, and it also seems overly scrupulous.

This site is using six different authorities for their classification, and this is apparently also the origin of the terms they are using. If you go the charts at oodegr.com/english/ag_grafi/biblia.grafis1.htm they are listed side by side. The most obvious thing is that most of these authorities are using one classification for all the books given in their list which then doesn’t appear in any other lists. One will call these books divine, the next divinely inspired, another canon, or proposed reading, or venerable, and so on. Only one of the list, St. Athanasius the Great, does otherwise and apparently calls most books canonical and others Church reading, a term none of the other sources seem to use btw. What this tells me is that there is no reason to presume that what one person calls divine is meant to be read as anything different than what the other person calls divinely inspired.

Consider the 85th Apostolic Canon which is first on the chart. That canon seems to be the reason that 3 Maccabees is included in some canons since it is the only one which lists it at all. According to this site that book is also not given the same status as other books because the 85th Apostolic Canon does not call it Divine or Divinely Inspired, but merely calls it “venerable,” meaning worthy of respect, and “holy,” which is mysteriously defined as “a book that is merely beneficial and not necessarily infallible or Divine or Divinely Inspired. In other words, it can be used as an aid, but it cannot be used to support dogmatic or canonical truths.” This would mean then that 3 Maccabees “cannot be used to support dogmatic or canonical truths,” unlike, say, the Gospels, which Athanasius and Amphilochius call Divinely Inspired. Fine, but what about the fact that this same canon also lists as merely “venerable” and “holy” every book of the Bible, including the Gospels! Either the 85th Apostolic Canon is a worthless authority or “venerable” and “holy” were not used to mean what is being inferred by the people on this site. I can’t help but think somebody is overthinking the meanings of these terms and insisting on differences where none was ever seen by the original sources. Otherwise Gregory the Theologian denied that there was any divine revelation in any book of the entire Bible! How plausible does that really seem?
 
I seem to recall that in America you often had Polish parishes and Irish parishes within a short distance from each other. The Irish Catholics never went to the Polish church and the Polish Catholics never went to the Irish church. Catholics are not immune to nationalism.

John
as of today, in the US, i just see it as cultural differences. i think most people like what is familiar. as for me i’ll take any Church just so long as it’s Catholic.
 
There is that, to be sure. It is the sin called phyletism, and must be guarded against.

Truthfully, I have seen the same problem elsewhere.

In Chicago Archdiocese there were, at times, conflicts between ethnic groups which had to use the same parishes. One or the other could not wait for the chance to establish a parish of it’s own. That pattern repeated for 150 years around Chicago, and was part of the impetus for growth.

We had, a few years ago, a case where the Archbishop decided to consolidate two parishes into one. The one was an historic and very beautifully restored church originally founded for Irish, then became Italian and was finally predominantly African-American (unfortunately, there were too few parishioners to keep up the building). The other was a Mexican-American parish, actually the ‘mother’ parish of many others in the city, and it had plenty of parishioners that the bishop thought should move into the other one down the street. It required some pastoral sensitivity, but I do not doubt that both ethnic groups were experiencing ‘phyletism’, while the Cardinal was just applying ‘good’ business sense, probably assuming all Christians are the same in the eyes of God and they should not object. Emotions ran very high, the dispute hit the media and eventually the Archbishop relented.

This kind of thing was partly what caused problems like the schism of the PNCC. Having a common bishop with the other ethnic groups did not prevent abuse of the community by the bishops, nor intolerance on the part of the faithful.

Because of that tragic schism there seems to be an informal formula in place in Chicago, there is always a Polish Auxiliary Bishop in the Archdiocese.

Long ago in the local parish around here, I can remember an Asian girl at Mass, she looked Chinese to me. She must have felt completely out of place because she looked it. She fumbled trying to get past some inconsiderate people who would not slide down the pew to make room for her and then she seemed to forget where she sat after communion. I wanted to help her but she was a few pews away (and I was stuck in the middle of my pew). Before I knew it she was running out the door!..I felt so bad for her. Yes, I was probably staring at her although I didn’t realize it at the time, I could be one of many worshipers whose eyes on her made her feel uncomfortable. Little did I know that years later I would run into that same situation from time to time.

More recently, some Cistercian priests from Poland took up residence in a suburb near here. I wanted to go for a Mass, but my dear old priest friend, Father G (who also happened to be Polish, and spoke the language well) advised me not too, because they were operating outside of the bishops permission! In his opinion they were trading on the ethnic connection to support their community, attracting people from the surrounding parishes.

Nevertheless, the place has drawn new immigrant Poles like a magnet, and they have erected an awesome edifice of a church building on their property. I called, the priest answered the phone in Polish. I asked for the Mass times in English and he said, “you realize that this is a Polish church, don’t you?” I said “yes”, but I was surprised by this brusque response. Eventually, a few years ago, I was driving by on a Sunday morning and saw everyone filing in so I pulled into the lot too (I was looking for a more reverent Mass at the time), and even though the place was brand new and big, it was standing room only!

I am of Polish descent myself (but don’t speak the language) and I felt like a complete outsider, I am a suburban whitebread American in every way but my name. What made it worse was the way I felt so many mutely stared at me. You can chalk it up to my imagination of course (that could be the case), but it’s that kind of misapprehension that contributes to the problem of different sorts of people with different languages going to Mass together.

Among the Eastern Catholics in the USA, the problems between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Greek Catholic church are legendary. The two groups were being forced together and they knew it. From the outset one group didn’t like the fact that the sole bishop was from the other group. Rome tried to have one hierarchy for both nationalities in the United States, but actually had to give up on that idea.

(More recently there were problems in the Czech Republic of a similar nature. Mainly between the Ukrainian immigrants and the native Czechs, there were a few hi-jinks being pulled that caught peoples attention on the net.)

In the Eastern Churches that kind of problem can seem more acute, because canonically we are supposed to only have one Divine Liturgy, we are compelled to show up together as one community. There should theoretically not be a 9:00AM Amharic liturgy and an 11:00AM Swahili liturgy, so there is a tendency to bud off new parishes at an accelerated rate to accommodate the growing needs of the community.

This nationalism does happen in Orthodoxy, I will say, but it is in no way happening only there. It is part of the human condition since the Tower of Babel. It is always wrong. We know it’s wrong, and we challenge it, our bishops and Patriarchs preach against it. We can do better.

The church should always be welcoming and warm to newcomers of whatever background. It’s not just my church, and it’s not just your church…it is our church. We are the Body of Christ.
that is sad to hear regarding the asian woman. 😦

i have traveled much and have been to numerous Catholic churches and there was only one where i felt uncomfortable. it had nothing to do with race or culture rather i suppose it was because i was new and alone. having gone to Catholic school in a diverse part of america with classmates from all over, i feel totally at home in any parish whether the majority of members be irish, polish, african, italian, mexican, cuban, you name it. belonging to Christ’s Church transcends these minor differences and helps us appreciate various forms of music, architect and food.
you wrote:
In the Eastern Churches that kind of problem can seem more acute, because canonically we are supposed to only have one Divine Liturgy, we are compelled to show up together as one community. There should theoretically not be a 9:00AM Amharic liturgy and an 11:00AM Swahili liturgy, so there is a tendency to bud off new parishes at an accelerated rate to accommodate the growing needs of the community.
you mean in eastern orthodox mass there is only one service? my Church has most services in english and one in spanish. it just seems like a practical thing to do. there’s no problem so perhaps we are seeing a younger generation more open to these differences.
 
unless someone has anything else to add regarding this topic, i think this best explains the why as to 3 machabees being included.

Until the time of Moses, the people of God were guided by oral tradition. With the writing of the Pentateuch by Moses, the nation of Israel received its first scriptures. In about 200 BC, the books of the prophets, previously kept only as tradition, were added to the canon of the scriptures. These scriptures were translated into Greek in 120 BC by 72 elders under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This version of Old Testament scripture, known as the Septuagint, was the version quoted in the New Testament and used by the early Christians, and is the official version used today by Orthodox Christians. After the Incarnation of our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ, the New Testament canon was compiled. The first compilation of the New Testament scriptures appears in the Canons of the Holy Apostles. The second compilation is found in the canons of the Council of Carthage (419 AD), the version used in the Orthodox Church today. There are also several Old and New Testament books that were not officially approved by the Local or Ecumenical Councils, but are nevertheless kept as Holy Tradition. The text of these apocryphal books are provided here for the sake of clarity and completeness.

taken from here:

orthodoxfaith.com/scriptures.html

chellow, i think you were right after all. :tiphat:

and cothridge, you made some very interesting observations in your post.

as to all the variances on classifying books, some ideas crossed my mind as to why that might be, but i think it best i keep them to myself as i am still very ignorant on this topic.
 
Oh are we? Let’s not bring up some of the sins the Roman Catholic Church is suffering from… suffice to say they’re a lot worse than “nationalism”. :rolleyes:
As I stated the Catholic faithful are not without sin and unfuntaly the church is repeaing the fruits of their sins.
I seem to recall that in America you often had Polish parishes and Irish parishes within a short distance from each other. The Irish Catholics never went to the Polish church and the Polish Catholics never went to the Irish church. Catholics are not immune to nationalism.

John
There is that, to be sure. It is the sin called phyletism, and must be guarded against.

Truthfully, I have seen the same problem elsewhere.

In Chicago Archdiocese there were, at times, conflicts between ethnic groups which had to use the same parishes. One or the other could not wait for the chance to establish a parish of it’s own. That pattern repeated for 150 years around Chicago, and was part of the impetus for growth…
Ouch! How about Removing the plank my own eye before removing the speck from the Orthodox. I guess we may suffer from the same sin but maybe not as harsh.
 
you mean in eastern Orthodox mass there is only one service? my Church has most services in english and one in spanish. it just seems like a practical thing to do. there’s no problem so perhaps we are seeing a younger generation more open to these differences.
Canonically, the priest is fasting and the altar is fasting.

One Divine Liturgy on a Sunday. You will find exceptions to this (with a blessing from the bishop) but that is not normal.

The evening before is for Vespers, so no anticipation liturgy.

🙂
 
Canonically, the priest is fasting and the altar is fasting.

One Divine Liturgy on a Sunday. You will find exceptions to this (with a blessing from the bishop) but that is not normal.

The evening before is for Vespers, so no anticipation liturgy.

🙂
wow, i had no idea! one Mass, that’s it. what about during the week, no daily Mass either?
 
wow, i had no idea! one Mass, that’s it. what about during the week, no daily Mass either?
Divine Liturgy can be served daily, however it usually requires that the priest is something of an ascetic as he would be constantly fasting, or that there be more than one priest serving in the parish to share the responsibility. In the convents and monasteries the liturgy is served daily, and there have been a number of priests who served daily. One who comes to mind is St Nicholas Planas

John
 
Divine Liturgy can be served daily, however it usually requires that the priest is something of an ascetic as he would be constantly fasting, or that there be more than one priest serving in the parish to share the responsibility. In the convents and monasteries the liturgy is served daily, and there have been a number of priests who served daily. One who comes to mind is St Nicholas Planas

John
thank you for sharing that info. i had no idea.

peace,
jen
 
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