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fish90
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When would this occur? Can anyone please explain the difference between venial and mortal sinful thoughts and when a fleeting thought becomes sinful?
fish90
fish90
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spencer2
Guest
It becomes sinful when you dwell on the thought and take pleasure in it’s delight. Non sinful would be recognizing the thought is sinful but not consenting to it by ignoring it or thinking of something else.
T
teevee
Guest
This is my view on this so if I’ve got it wrong someone will correct me, but I like to think of it like this; you can’t be too careful. If a ‘sinful’ thought is bothering you, mention it in confession. But as far as when do fleeting thought become sinful, remember this. The devil exists; think of fleeting thoughts as him offering you a gift. If you immediately push it to one side knowing it wouldn’t be good for you and put it in the rubbish bin, then it doesn’t (I think) become sinful. But if it intrigues you so that you start to take off the wrapping to find out a little more then it becomes sinful because you are making a personal choice and letting yourself be drawn into it. Obviously there are out and out one off acts that are immediate mortal sins where all spark of charity is driven out of the soul. How venial sins become mortal is a bit more subtle (again I think). You start off thinking they’re not serious, maybe don’t mention them in confession for that very reason, next thing because they’re ‘not serious’ you don’t think of them as sinful at all so incorporate them into your behaviour, next thing because you don’t think they’re sinful you’re whole concept of sin becomes blurred and it becomes much easier to commit a mortal sin. One day I’ll work out properly how that fits in with the Church’s teaching on motal sin but right now it works for me.
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francisca
Guest
When it goes into real bad action.When would this occur? Can anyone please explain the difference between venial and mortal sinful thoughts and when a fleeting thought becomes sinful?
fish90
B
Bookcat
Guest
One can confess any sin one is sorry for…be it mortal (required to be confessed) or venial …
B
Bookcat
Guest
(from previous posts of mine)
Regarding thoughts
while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…
(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)
What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…
(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)
First…Relax. Do not worry.
Now are they mortal sins?
For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!
A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.
B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.
C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.
D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…
remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!
What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.
Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)
for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.
tick tock …
tick tock…
Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.
So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry
another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.
they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …
(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)
Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…
How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…
(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)
There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.
The younger hermit said such is not possible…
the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.
So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business
Regarding thoughts
while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…
(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)
What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…
(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)
First…Relax. Do not worry.
Now are they mortal sins?
For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!
A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.
B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.
C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.
D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…
remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!
What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.
Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)
for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.
tick tock …
tick tock…
Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.
So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry
another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.
they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …
(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)
Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…
How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…
(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)
There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.
The younger hermit said such is not possible…
the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.
So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business
B
Bookcat
Guest
in addition to my last post…
When one is tempted…
Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only “partial consent”:
If even though there was some instinctive pleasure …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)
(For example some thoughts come out of the blue just cause one happened to see an attractive person…and one does not want the thoughts but turns to God in Prayer or is horrified by them and turns to something else etc…no matter how much they come back…if one does not consent at all…there is no sin…but rather possibly growth in virtues)
If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)
If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial
Of course if one then gives in and gives full consent…then such can be mortal…remember…partial consent or half consent is not full consent…and thus not mortal.
(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)
When one is tempted…
Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only “partial consent”:
If even though there was some instinctive pleasure …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)
(For example some thoughts come out of the blue just cause one happened to see an attractive person…and one does not want the thoughts but turns to God in Prayer or is horrified by them and turns to something else etc…no matter how much they come back…if one does not consent at all…there is no sin…but rather possibly growth in virtues)
If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)
If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial
Of course if one then gives in and gives full consent…then such can be mortal…remember…partial consent or half consent is not full consent…and thus not mortal.
(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)
F
fish90
Guest
I wish to add some examples if I may to see if I am on the same page.
Example A:
Let’s say someone thinks about sin A. The thought enters the mind, and they think about it to see whether or not this is correct. They consent to thinking the thought is correct, but choose to think the person will choose the Jesus’ side and see where that leads the person. A long time passes until the thought is found to be untrue.
Sin - venial, little consent
What if they knew the thought was wrong, but their will was weakened into believing in it?
Example B:
Person B gets bombarded with a sinful thought and that person’s will suffers and the person believes this is a right course of action
Sin- borderline mortal if it isn’t already.
Example C:
A person gets a thought that a girl is pretty, so he looks at her and feels lust. He decides to look away after looking again (recognition of possible sin has occurred), and attempts to get rid of the thought.
Sin- venial if single, worse if married
Example D:
A person gets a thought and acts on it.
Sin- mortal depending on how sinful the action is
Example E:
A person thinks to not look at pictures, but looks when a picture is shown by a neighbor. The image is not “porn,” something along the lines of Cosmo.
Sin- venial full consent not given and looking action was not mortal since the material was not mortally sinful
Please comment on what I wrote. I would appreciate your responses.
fish90
Example A:
Let’s say someone thinks about sin A. The thought enters the mind, and they think about it to see whether or not this is correct. They consent to thinking the thought is correct, but choose to think the person will choose the Jesus’ side and see where that leads the person. A long time passes until the thought is found to be untrue.
Sin - venial, little consent
What if they knew the thought was wrong, but their will was weakened into believing in it?
Example B:
Person B gets bombarded with a sinful thought and that person’s will suffers and the person believes this is a right course of action
Sin- borderline mortal if it isn’t already.
Example C:
A person gets a thought that a girl is pretty, so he looks at her and feels lust. He decides to look away after looking again (recognition of possible sin has occurred), and attempts to get rid of the thought.
Sin- venial if single, worse if married
Example D:
A person gets a thought and acts on it.
Sin- mortal depending on how sinful the action is
Example E:
A person thinks to not look at pictures, but looks when a picture is shown by a neighbor. The image is not “porn,” something along the lines of Cosmo.
Sin- venial full consent not given and looking action was not mortal since the material was not mortally sinful
Please comment on what I wrote. I would appreciate your responses.
fish90
B
Bookcat
Guest
As to your other particular questions…it would be best perhaps to bring them to your confessor…for he can ask “live” questions …and he knows you and your conscience etc.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
- When does one commit a mortal sin?
1874
One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.
- When does one commit a venial sin?
1875
One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.
V
valentino
Guest
Temptation is a part of life.Sin is when we act on that temptation.a venial sin thought may be to tell a lie.But you stop yourself and you commit no sin.(you also recieve grace).A mortal sin thought may be to do bodily harm to someone you don’t like.If you act on it you may have committed a mortal sin depending on the extent of the injuries you inflicted.When would this occur? Can anyone please explain the difference between venial and mortal sinful thoughts and when a fleeting thought becomes sinful?
fish90
H
hammer05
Guest
This is an especially difficult dilemma for someone who has OCD and is plagued inappropriate thoughts. The best things I have learned from my own experiences is that when you recognize that a thought does not mean you have a desire to act something out nor that you will act out on it, the thought has much less power over you. Fighting such thoughts by trying to displace them only makes them stay all the more (try NOT to think about a pink elephant…good luck!). Thoughts and temptation in and of themselves are not sin. As one priest on told me–sin involves making an act of the will.
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