When does the Real Presence happen?

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SJacob7

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When exactly in the Mass does the host and wine become the Real Presence of Jesus? When the Mass starts, it just a wafer and wine. So what is done/said (and when it happens) to make it become the Real Presence. Just trying to understand… Thanks!
 
After the words of Consecration “This is my body, etc.”…“This is the cup of my blood, etc”.

From the USCCB
The Institution narrative and Consecration , by which, by means of the words and actions of Christ, that Sacrifice is effected which Christ himself instituted during the Last Supper, when he offered his Body and Blood under the species of bread and wine, gave them to the Apostles to eat and drink, and leaving with the latter the command to perpetuate this same mystery.
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Ok, I thought that, but wasn’t sure. So right after those words are said, “This my body etc” is when it becomes the Real Presence. Thanks, that helps!
 
SJacob7 said:
Ok, I thought that, but wasn’t sure. So right after those words are said, “This my body etc” is when it becomes the Real Presence. Thanks, that helps!
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Yes, that is why the priest genuflects after saying those words.
 
It has generally been taught in the West that it is at or near the words of institution. The nun in my 7th grade class told us it was definitely between the sanctus and the great amen. Of course in the east there is probably a different teaching. For one form of the divine liturgy, accepted by the church as valid does not even include the words of institution.
Another time when the real presence could occur is when the holy spirit is called upon to make these gifts holy. I think it is the Epiclesis.
 
I think @Evan has a more complete answer. I heard something similar, as if to dissuade the idea that the words of consecration are somehow “magic”.
 
Thanks to all that answered! I understand better.

With that being said, I would like to ask what is probably a stupid question but have always wondered. Is there someplace in the Catechism that states what can be consecrated or not? Can something other than the host and wine be consecrated into the Real Presence? I mean if it’s the words that consecrate, what role does the material the consecration is applied to matter? Please, I’m just trying to understand things. Thanks!
 
That can be found in the code of canon law

THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION

Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.

§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.

§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.

Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.

Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.
 
Thank you for looking that up and posting it! I imagine I can find the code of canon law online. It will certainly help, along with the Catechism, to find answers so I don’t have to bother people here! Thanks again Stephen_says

God Bless
 
dochawk said:
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Evan:
Of course in the east there is probably a different teaching.
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Indeed.

Given a list of possibilities on this , we answer “yes.”

😱 :crazy_face: 🙏
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That reminds me of an advanced Mass class being given at my parish (Latin Rite) where the priest asked up the question of this thread and pretty much gave everyone the “yes” answer to all the suggestions. It was funny because he kept asking “anyone else?” and we all thought we hadn’t hit it yet so we started nitpicking the wording of different Eucharistic Prayers and trying to find the timing when all of them would coincide.

Mainly he got us off track because he started handing out Eastern Rite wording and that really sent us off. We could only use the words said at mass as our justification for our answers, no other sources. Which meant we couldn’t go wander off to the Catechism or other documents. In the end we all just agreed that by the time we received the Eucharist Transubstatiation had happened and then asked the priest to have pity on us. 🤣
 
RoseScented said:
In the end we all just agreed that by the time we received the Eucharist Transubstatiation had happened and then asked the priest to have pity on us. 🤣
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And that is what matters!

you’re well on the way East!
😱 🤣 😝

I’ll bet he didn’t even pull out the Seraphim in St.Basil’s Anaphora:\
You are surrounded by the six-winged seraphim;
two wings cover their face, two their feet, and with two they fly,
and they call one to another with never-ending and never-silent hymns of praise,
singing, shouting, crying aloud, and saying the triumphal hymn:
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Can I find more information about Persona Christi in the Catechism or would it be somewhere in the code of canon law?
 
or not. It could be the transubstantiation occurred earlier and that is when the priest, acting in persona Christi, is presenting his sacrificed body/blood to the father for the remission our our sins and for the reconciliation of the Church and God.
 
Thanks for the information. I must say, I was a little taken back when I read that the priest has the authority of Jesus himself. For me, that’s a little difficult to comprehend. How was this authority given? I guess I’m trying to figure out the justification of this authority. I’m just trying to understand. Thanks again for your help!
 
SJacob7 said:
Thanks for the information. I must say, I was a little taken back when I read that the priest has the authority of Jesus himself. For me, that’s a little difficult to comprehend. How was this authority given? I guess I’m trying to figure out the justification of this authority. I’m just trying to understand. Thanks again for your help!
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Maybe “authority” is not the correct word here as it has too many non-religious connotations. The priest seems to be more of a servant, a means through which the mystery is accomplished.
 
I would just add that Westerners are concerned with artolatry, or in plain English, they do not want to worship bread and wine. Our Blessed Lord, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, yes. A wafer and a cup of wine, no. So that’s why p(name removed by moderator)ointing a moment is important. I realize this is not so important in the East, but it is in the West — just a difference in mentality and sensibility. When that final word “…Body” or “…Blood” is uttered, then the species go from being bread or wine respectively, to being the Body or Blood of Christ. If I am understanding Western Catholic sacramental theology correctly, if the priest were to say “this is My…” or “this is the chalice of My…” and were immediately to drop dead, not saying the final word, the species would remain bread or wine. Ditto if he were to say “Bo…” or “Bl…” without enunciating the entire word. This may sound pointless to Easterners, or silly to Protestants, but it is just how we think, and what we do. We only ask the same respect that you expect us to show to you.
 
SJacob7 said:
Thanks for the information. I must say, I was a little taken back when I read that the priest has the authority of Jesus himself. For me, that’s a little difficult to comprehend. How was this authority given?
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“Do this in memory of Me”. That one’s simple.
 
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