When *IS* dance allowed at Mass?

[benedictgal]

Already answered - look up a dictionary sometime, note the difference in meaning between the word ‘necessary’ and the word ‘permissible’ - I am arguing, as I have always BEEN arguing, that it was permissible at WYD, and would have been permissible at St Marys too - never that it was necessary at any event.

‘Within the context of their particular culture’ - yes. Which phrase doesn’t have anything to do with the physical territory or the cultural composition of the congregation.

It means, for example, that not being African I couldn’t DO African dancing within the context of a Mass. Nothing in those documents means, however, that we can’t permit Africans to express their culture by doing their dance (or anything else that is culturally appropriate for them) within Masses in our city simply because the congregation won’t be majority African.

I grew up going to what was called a ‘Tongan’ Mass - a lot, but not the majority, of attendees were Tongan, but they basically took over all the music and it was their own style of music. Absolutely wonderful, very worshipful and lifted the hearts of everyone who attended, Tongan or not, to heaven.

How ever much you hate the word, those two WYD Masses WERE being celebrated in a multicultural context - a mix of different cultures - there’s no other way to describe it. Hence the readings in different languages, hence the people of different cultures in their national dress bringing up the gifts. Which parts of the Mass you seem not to object to.

To apply your logic consistently, though, would mean that both of these were improper - since a Mass must be all about one (majority) culture and stick, come heck or high water, to that culture. In this case meaning English should have been the only vernacular used, since the majority were English speakers, which would permit of no readings in other languages (the Mass is not within non-English speaking territory and is NOT, according to you, a multicultural event) and no foreign national costumes.

What experimentation is there in Aboriginals and Fijians doing sacred dance that they’ve done in the context of the Mass probably ever since they started HAVING Masses however many centuries ago?

And as above, how can you argue that Aboriginal or Fijian dance is wrong where, for example, having one or more of the readings or prayers of the faithful in an Aboriginal or Fijian language would have been perfectly OK?

First of all, please do not mix things. “Dancing” is not part of the Mass for Latin Rite Catholics. There is no tradition for the dance in the Latin Rite. There may be allowances for inculturation, but, that only applies to the particular indigenous group and not to the Universal Church. Furthermore, these are studied on a case-by-case basis. Therefore, your argument falls apart right there.

Now, the readings and general intercessions in the vernacular are approved, under the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. This is certainly done in Masses at St. Peter’s, especially during John Paul’s Funeral Mass, Pope Benedict’s Installation Mass and other liturgies.

The issue of the faithful approaching the Holy Father in their native attire is also something that is perfectly legitimate. Furthermore, they aren’t doing anything like “dancing”; they are merely bringing up the gifts of bread and wine.

Australila, inasmuch as she is in Oceania, still has strong European influences, does she not? Is Queen Elizabeth not your Monarch? Yes, the aboriginals have been around for some several thousand years; however, Australiais still bears more of a Western European mark than anything else.

The Church does make allowances for inculturation, but, not in the universal and international setting you seem to think it does.

 

[JPUSC]

None of the Christian rites include dancing.** What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. **It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.

• The Spirit of the Liturgy, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Signs of the human world. In human life, signs and symbols occupy an important place. As a being at once body and spirit, man expresses and perceives spiritual realities through physical signs and symbols. As a social being, man needs signs and symbols to communicate with others, through language, gestures, and actions. The same holds true for his relationship with God.

The liturgy of the Word is an integral part of sacramental celebrations. **To nourish the faith of believers, the signs which accompany the Word of God should be emphasized: the book of the Word (a lectionary or a book of the Gospels), its veneration **(procession, incense, candles), the place of its proclamation (lectern or ambo), its audible and intelligible reading, the minister’s homily which extends its proclamation, and the responses of the assembly (acclamations, meditation psalms, litanies, and profession of faith).

• Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1146, 1154, How is the Liturgy Celebrated?

The Gospel Procession, was not liturgical dance, per se. It was literally a rhythmically ordered procession accompanied by a choir.

When the term “liturgical dance” is applied to rituals having to do with incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy, to interpretive ballet dance, and to dances tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses as in the West, then it is true that it has no basis in the Latin Rite.

The Gospel Procession at WYD is part of the Fijan Latin Rite Mass, not a separate rite like the Ethiopian liturgical*Rite. It is now a part of the rich tradition of the Universal Church. The Mass celebrated at WYD was a Latin Rite Mass as is the Fijan Mass; there was no mixing of rites or novelties. The procession contained nothing contrary to the faith and was one culture’s expression of the Catholic faith. The Fijans are part of the Universal Church.

Fiji is no longer a “missionary land”, it is a modern society. The official language there is English. Attending a Fijan Mass is no different than attending a local Spanish Mass, for example.

Yes, Oceania is a westernized continent, but the Church has allowed certain cultural customs within the Mass in Western nations. For example, the USCCB recently approved an order of blessing in the Mass for Quinceañeras in the U.S.

 

[benedictgal]

None of the Christian rites include dancing.** What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. **It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.

• The Spirit of the Liturgy, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Signs of the human world. In human life, signs and symbols occupy an important place. As a being at once body and spirit, man expresses and perceives spiritual realities through physical signs and symbols. As a social being, man needs signs and symbols to communicate with others, through language, gestures, and actions. The same holds true for his relationship with God.

The liturgy of the Word is an integral part of sacramental celebrations. **To nourish the faith of believers, the signs which accompany the Word of God should be emphasized: the book of the Word (a lectionary or a book of the Gospels), its veneration **(procession, incense, candles), the place of its proclamation (lectern or ambo), its audible and intelligible reading, the minister’s homily which extends its proclamation, and the responses of the assembly (acclamations, meditation psalms, litanies, and profession of faith).

• Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1146, 1154, How is the Liturgy Celebrated?

The Gospel Procession, was not liturgical dance, per se. It was literally a rhythmically ordered procession accompanied by a choir.

When the term “liturgical dance” is applied to rituals having to do with incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy, to interpretive ballet dance, and to dances tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses as in the West, then it is true that it has no basis in the Latin Rite.

The Gospel Procession at WYD is part of the Fijan Latin Rite Mass, not a separate rite like the Ethiopian liturgical*Rite. It is now a part of the rich tradition of the Universal Church. The Mass celebrated at WYD was a Latin Rite Mass as is the Fijan Mass; there was no mixing of rites or novelties. The procession contained nothing contrary to the faith and was one culture’s expression of the Catholic faith. The Fijans are part of the Universal Church.

Fiji is no longer a “missionary land”, it is a modern society. The official language there is English. Attending a Fijan Mass is no different than attending a local Spanish Mass, for example.

Yes, Oceania is a westernized continent, but the Church has allowed certain cultural customs within the Mass in Western nations. For example, the USCCB recently approved an order of blessing in the Mass for Quinceañeras in the U.S.

Yes, but, as someone who has prepared the celebration for Quince Anos (and, if you are going to throw that as an argument, as ineffective as it may be, please get the terminology right: the Quincenera is the honoree, not the ceremony), I can tell you, first-hand, that no dancing is included there (unless you go to the reception.

These are two entirely different things. The inclusion of the Blessing (and it is not a rite) for the Quince Anos came as a result of Mexican-American parents complaining that their pastors were denying their daughters this blessing because it wasn’t in the U.S. version of the Book of the Blessings. It is, however, in the version approved for use for the Mexican Episcopal Conference. Therefore, what you are addressing here, while it falls under inculturation, is a little different becaue the parents are asking for something that is already part of the liturgical books in one country, but, until last year, wasn’t a part of the books in the United States. I know because I spoke to the priest who was directly involved in writing that document.

Down here, in my neck of the woods, we have a plethora of Quine Anos celebratoins. But, since we are on the Texas/Mexico border, we use the Mexican liturgy books, including the Roman Missal (which includes the Lectionary), the Book of the Gospels and the Book of Blessings. So, for us, it has never been a problem.

Now, we, too, have Matachines, folks from Aztec ancestry who perform a sacred dance in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe. This has been going on for centuries in Mexico. However, the dance is not a part of the Mass. In fact, it is done while the image of OLG is carried into procession, and, falls in line with what is noted in the document from the Holy See:

If local churches have accepted the dance, sometimes even in the church building, that was on the occasion of feasts in order to manifest sentiments of joy and devotion. But that always took place outside of liturgical services.

Is rhere really such a tihing as a Fijan Latin Rite Mass? If so, please provide the aurhoritative documentation from the Holy See that grants that recognitio. If no such entity exists, then, you are greatly misinformed. Even if that were the case, you can’t mix and match rites. Just as you can’t incorporate elements of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy into the Latin Rite, you cannot introduce thigns into the Mass on your own initiative. As far as I know, there are onlyi two versions of the Latin Rite Mass, the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form. Furthermore, the Latin Rite, to my knowledge, is not divided into sub-rites. The only divisoin that comes into play is where language is concerned, where each national episcopal conference has its Roman Missal drawn up in their vernacluar.

One interesting thing to note is that in the document that everyone seems to quote to justify the dance there appears a curious statement that

Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

This odd little footnote is important because the ones performing the dance were priests and semniarians from Fifi. That, in itself, is a red flag. Because the document doesn’t specify if it limits the prohibition to the prest-celebrant, then there things which started off on the wrong foot to begin with, continued going downhill.

 

[Pro_Domina]

Never. Simply said. Dancing out side of the church is already most of the times immoral, but in the church?!?!?!?!?!

David danced in a parade. Go start a parade then.

 

[Cobbfmly]

These are two entirely different things. The inclusion of the Blessing (and it is not a rite) for the Quince Anos came as a result of Mexican-American parents complaining that their pastors were denying their daughters this blessing because it wasn’t in the U.S. version of the Book of the Blessings. It is, however, in the version approved for use for the Mexican Episcopal Conference. Therefore, what you are addressing here, while it falls under inculturation, is a little different becaue the parents are asking for something that is already part of the liturgical books in one country, but, until last year, wasn’t a part of the books in the United States. I know because I spoke to the priest who was directly involved in writing that document.

Do you know for a fact that the “dances” we saw at the WYD are not in the liturgical books of Fuji and Torres Straits?

 

[benedictgal]

Do you know for a fact that the “dances” we saw at the WYD are not in the liturgical books of Fuji and Torres Straits?

Do you know for a fact if they are? Furthermore, the liturgical books that were used for the Mass at WYD were for the OF of the Mass, which doesn’t include provisions for the dance.

Furthermore, the Mass was not specifically for Figi and the Torres Straits. It was for the entire assembly. If the Mass were specificaly for these indigenous groups, or, in a missionary setting, then inculturation kicks in for this particular Mass. However, the Mass was not geared towards these groups.

You need to differentiate between the two.

 

[JPUSC]

Like I said before, it wasn’t a mixing of rites. It was incorporating a custom from a Latin Rite Mass in the Ordinary Form.

I also pointed out that the procession does not fit the definition of “liturgical dance” as we know it.

All the GIRM states in regards to the Gospel Procession is:

1. After the reading that immediately precedes the Gospel, the Alleluia or another chant indicated by the rubrics is sung, as required by the liturgical season. An acclamation of this kind constitutes a rite or act in itself, by which the assembly of the faithful welcomes and greets the Lord who is about to speak to them in the Gospel and professes their faith by means of the chant. It is sung by all while standing and is led by the choir or a cantor, being repeated if this is appropriate.

When the document states that priests are prohibited from “dance”, it most likely refers to the celebrant/concelebrants. An example of this abuse would be a priest doing an interpretive dance in place of the Gospel or homily. Moreover, the procession participants were seminarians and deacons.

You said that the inclusion of the Blessing for the Quince Anos came as a result of parents complaining, so the local authorities made a pastoral decision to include this custom in the Mass.

There is nothing wrong with the Sydney Archdiocese making a pastoral decision to include the procession as it is a custom part of the version approved for use in the Fijan Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Like I said before, it wasn’t a mixing of rites. It was incorporating a custom from a Latin Rite Mass in the Ordinary Form.

I also pointed out that the procession does not fit the definition of “liturgical dance” as we know it.

All the GIRM states in regards to the Gospel Procession is:

1. After the reading that immediately precedes the Gospel, the Alleluia or another chant indicated by the rubrics is sung, as required by the liturgical season. An acclamation of this kind constitutes a rite or act in itself, by which the assembly of the faithful welcomes and greets the Lord who is about to speak to them in the Gospel and professes their faith by means of the chant. It is sung by all while standing and is led by the choir or a cantor, being repeated if this is appropriate.

When the document states that priests are prohibited from “dance”, it most likely refers to the celebrant/concelebrants. An example of this abuse would be a priest doing an interpretive dance in place of the Gospel or homily. Moreover, the procession participants were seminarians and deacons.

You said that the inclusion of the Blessing for the Quince Anos came as a result of parents complaining, so the local authorities made a pastoral decision to include this custom in the Mass.

There is nothing wrong with the Sydney Archdiocese making a pastoral decision to include the procession as it is a custom part of the version approved for use in the Fijan Mass.

Again, please provide authoritative documentation from the Holy See that grants the recoginitio to the Fijans. Furthermore, the Fijans aren’t part of the Archdiocese of Sydney, since Fiji is another country. Now, you’ve really gone oveboard.

In the case of the Qunice Anos celebration, those dioceses with Spanish-language speakers are permitted to use the liturgical books from Mexico (as is the case with Texas). As of yet, the USCCB does not have its own Spanish-language set of liturgical books, but, these are forthcoming. Until such time that the books are approved by the USCCB and have gained the ncecessary recogntio from Rome, we will have to use the Mexican versions.

But, in your quotation of the GIRM, not provisions are made for dance to accompany the procession. Furthermore, the Book of the Gospels is processed from the Altar to the ambo. It is brought in during the Entrance procession.

You can’t use the Ethiopians as an example because that has been codified into their own Rite, which is not part of the Latin Rite.

 

[JPUSC]

From The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Australia

About your comment about the Mass not being the time for catechesis:
The Council of Trent already recognized the great catechetical value contained in the
celebration of Mass…the Council did direct pastors of souls to put appropriate
catechesis in its place: ‘Lest Christ’s flock go hungry . . . (11)

Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the
Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly. (40)

…the ‘norm of the holy Fathers’ requires not only the preservation of what our
immediate forebears have passed on to us, but also an understanding and a more profound study of
the Church’s entire past and of all the ways in which her one and only faith has been set forth in
the quite diverse human and social forms prevailing in the Semitic, Greek, and Latin areas.
Moreover, this broader view allows us to see how the Holy Spirit endows the People of God with a
marvellous fidelity in preserving the unalterable deposit of faith, even amid a very great variety of
prayers and rites (9)

This can also apply to the variety of prayers and rites currently in the Roman Rite: the unalterable deposit of faith has been preserved even with the quite diverse human and social forms.

And about your previous post…
The Sydney Archdiocese made a pastoral judgement to represent the Fijans at the Mass. Even though they are not from the Archdiocese, they are from the same continent. There are certainly individual Fijans within the Archdiocese. It is same principle as having other vernacular languages in U.S. Masses. Other Latin Rite customs are not restricted to only one area of the world, especially if they have something to offer to the rest of the Universal Church.

 

[benedictgal]

From The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, Australia

About your comment about the Mass not being the time for catechesis:
The Council of Trent already recognized the great catechetical value contained in the
celebration of Mass…the Council did direct pastors of souls to put appropriate
catechesis in its place: ‘Lest Christ’s flock go hungry . . . (11)

Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the
Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly. (40)

…the ‘norm of the holy Fathers’ requires not only the preservation of what our
immediate forebears have passed on to us, but also an understanding and a more profound study of
the Church’s entire past and of all the ways in which her one and only faith has been set forth in
the quite diverse human and social forms prevailing in the Semitic, Greek, and Latin areas.
Moreover, this broader view allows us to see how the Holy Spirit endows the People of God with a
marvellous fidelity in preserving the unalterable deposit of faith, even amid a very great variety of
prayers and rites (9)

This can also apply to the variety of prayers and rites currently in the Roman Rite: the unalterable deposit of faith has been preserved even with the quite diverse human and social forms.

Yes, but, you don’t include a show of multiculturalism during the Mass. The time for that was during the Welcoming Ceremony, and, that was done.

You still have not provided any documentation regarding the so-called Fiji Rite of the Mass

 

[JPUSC]

The GIRM is simply a list guidelines of what is permissable in the Mass. As long as the customs do not deviate from the GIRM, there is no liturgical abuse.

More from the GIRM:
313. The pastoral effectiveness of a celebration will be heightened
if the texts of readings, prayers, and songs correspond as closely as possible to the needs, religious dispositions, and aptitude of the participants. This will be achieved by an intelligent use of the
broad options described in this chapter.

In planning the celebration, then, the priest should consider the
general spiritual good of the assembly rather than his personal
outlook. He should be mindful that the choice of texts is to be made in consultation with the ministers and others who have a function in the celebration, including the faithful in regard to the parts that more directly belong to them.

Since a variety of options is provided for the different parts of the
Mass, it is necessary for the deacon, readers, psalmists, cantors,
commentator, and choir to be completely sure beforehand of those
texts for which they are responsible so that nothing is improvised. A harmonious planning and execution will help dispose the people
spiritually to take part in the eucharist.

The WYD Mass definitely corresponded to the needs of the international audience present. There was Gregorian Chant, use of the organ, Western-inspired Mass parts, Fijan Gospel Procession, different nations represented in the Offertory. None of these deviated from the GIRM. Multi-culturalism as a show with entertainment value is wrong. Multi-culturalism as a true expression of faith and with the true intent to represent the Universal Church is not.

The Archdiocese of Suva in Fiji does not have an official website, so it would be difficult to find their official church documents.

 

[benedictgal]

The GIRM is simply a list guidelines of what is permissable in the Mass. As long as the customs do not deviate from the GIRM, there is no liturgical abuse.

More from the GIRM:
313. The pastoral effectiveness of a celebration will be heightened
if the texts of readings, prayers, and songs correspond as closely as possible to the needs, religious dispositions, and aptitude of the participants. This will be achieved by an intelligent use of the
broad options described in this chapter.

In planning the celebration, then, the priest should consider the
general spiritual good of the assembly rather than his personal
outlook. He should be mindful that the choice of texts is to be made in consultation with the ministers and others who have a function in the celebration, including the faithful in regard to the parts that more directly belong to them.

Since a variety of options is provided for the different parts of the
Mass, it is necessary for the deacon, readers, psalmists, cantors,
commentator, and choir to be completely sure beforehand of those
texts for which they are responsible so that nothing is improvised. A harmonious planning and execution will help dispose the people
spiritually to take part in the eucharist.

The WYD Mass definitely corresponded to the needs of the international audience present. There was Gregorian Chant, use of the organ, Western-inspired Mass parts, Fijan Gospel Procession, different nations represented in the Offertory. None of these deviated from the GIRM. Multi-culturalism as a show with entertainment is wrong. Multi-culturalism as a true expression of faith is not.

The Archdiocese of Suva in Fiji does not have an official website, so it would be difficult to find their official church documents.

But, you can certainly check the Vatican website to see what documents exist.

Furthermore, the Mass is not a Mulligan’s stew of things that you throw into the pot. The Mass has its standards. Furthermore, it’s not an exercise in multi-culturalism. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Universal Church, first and foremost. Furthermore, inculturation serves the people for whom it was intended, mainly the minssionary territorise and is applicable only to them.

Yuur quote from an article from Adoremus concerining inculturation not being local comes from a Benedictine and not from someone from the Congragation for Divine Worship, either the Prefect or the Secretary of the Congregation.

The Church exercises prudence in deciding what part of a missionary land’s culture can be admitted into the Mass for that particular indegnous community. However, it is not applicable across the board.

 

[JPUSC]

I’m think I’m going to give it a rest as this discussion is going nowhere. Let us continue to pray that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Pope Benedict XVI continues to heal the divisions within the Church and Christianity as a whole.

A disagreement among the apostles of Jesus about who would be the greatest sends James and John to Jesus’ side. They decided to take fate into their own hands and not wait for Jesus to decide; they wish to be proclaimed the winners of the argument and ask if they can sit at Jesus’ right and left in the kingdom of heaven. Instead of entering into the apostles’ argument, Jesus directs them to a deeper understanding of goodness. He calls forth a child and says, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18: 3-4).

 

[benedictgal]

I’m think I’m going to give it a rest as this discussion is going nowhere. Let us continue to pray that with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Pope Benedict XVI continues to heal the divisions within the Church and Christianity as a whole.

A disagreement among the apostles of Jesus about who would be the greatest sends James and John to Jesus’ side. They decided to take fate into their own hands and not wait for Jesus to decide; they wish to be proclaimed the winners of the argument and ask if they can sit at Jesus’ right and left in the kingdom of heaven. Instead of entering into the apostles’ argument, Jesus directs them to a deeper understanding of goodness. He calls forth a child and says, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18: 3-4).

This argument, as well-meaning as it is, doesn’t apply here. It amazes me that every time the other side can’t get the right documentation to back up their claims, they’ll resort to a scripture pasage that has nothing to do with the thread in order to refute the other point.

The fact of the matter is that the issue of “inculturation” applies only to those areas in missionary lands in order to help them mainstream into the Church, while still respecting their particular traditions (so long as the Church finds a genuine merit in them).

The dance of the Samoans took place outside of the Mass. Furthermore, it was also within the context of a special liturgy for the missionary peoples. WYD is not the same thing. There is only so much you can stretch the rubber before it snaps back and hits you.

 

[JPUSC]

I’m not using scripture passage to defend my point. I am simply saying that instead of continuing to argue and trying to prove who is right, we should just put it to rest. This argument has been going on for 11 pages already and instead of producing fruitful results, it is bringing out heated arguments from both sides of the so-called “liturgy wars”, with some comments bordering on the uncharitable and un-Christian.

The WYD Mass is done, you cannot change the past, so look forward to the future.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m not using scripture passage to defend my point. I am simply saying that instead of continuing to argue and trying to prove who is right, we should just put it to rest. This argument has been going on for 11 pages already and instead of producing fruitful results, it is bringing out heated arguments from both sides of the so-called “liturgy wars”, with some comments bordering on the uncharitable and un-Christian.

The WYD Mass is done, you cannot change the past, so look forward to the future.

While WYD may be over, there will, no doubt, be chlling effects. People will justify inserting dance into the Mass because, after all, it was done at a Mass where the Holy Father was present.

Furthermore, the uncharitable remarks didn’t come from this end of the discussion. Since when is asking for bona fide and authoriative proof uncharitable? Since when is clarifying how the Church understands inculturation un-Christian?

The fact of the matter is that, as well-meaning as the gesture may have been at inclusiveness, the Mass is not the venue for that, especially where it concerns dance and when the setting is apart from the missionary context for which the dance may have been approved.

 

[connorcream]

• People will justify inserting dance into the Mass because, after all, it was done at a Mass where the Holy Father was present.*

Which is absolutely correct and why I have read this long thread. Mass as entertainment will never attract anyone seriously for very long. So glad to have the TLM at my parish.
connorcream

 

[jflare29]

And I suppose you think Latin was an organic development from the original Greek? Of course not - it was entirely a novelty and a concession to the culture of the time where Latin became the vernacular.

And how, pray tell, does one organically develop from NOT elevating the Host to elevating the Host? The two (action v non-action) are diametrically opposed to each other, one cannot be considered an organic development of the other.

It seems that you think that Latin was used at the Last Supper and nothing has changed or been ‘innovated’ or introduced into the Mass since. It seems that you are the one who does not understand how things work.

For my understanding, Latin indeed WAS an organic development from the original Greek. Remember that the Latin Mass as we know it more or less originated in Rome, where they spoke–Latin!

If various portions of the Holy Land had not been overtaken by other influences, which often all but obliterated Christianity, and the Mass, with it, it’s possible that Greek or another language might have become the norm.
Interestingly, the Latin Mass DOES have some Greek elements remaining: Kyrie eleison is NOT Latin.

I don’t know how the elevation came to pass, but I expect there’s a reasonable explanation.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is now closed.