When something in RCIA is taught wrong

[lotusblossom]

I’m not sure if this is the correct forum to post this, but if it isn’t, it will be moved .

Anyway, my husband and I are “team members” and sponsors in our parish’s RCIA program. On two different meetings, the person leading the lesson that night has said things that were incorrect. The first time, it was “minor” and slightly off-topic to begin with, so I just kept my mouth shut. However, this time around, we were going over the Trinity and she said that there are not persons of the Trinity, but essences since we know that they are not persons like us. I know this was wrong and my husband immediately looked it up in the Catechism, and I knew how to explain it (I took a class in which we learned about the Trinity), but I didn’t want to put conflict in. Now, this woman did add that this was her opinion, but the whole RCIA program seems to be based on opinion and very little substance is taught.

So, my question is, do I speak up? At that moment? in private? The other leaders of this are all way older than my husband and myself (by 30 yrs at least), so I feel akward speaking up. How do I approach something like this?

 

[mercygate]

I’m not sure if this is the correct forum to post this, but if it isn’t, it will be moved .

Anyway, my husband and I are “team members” and sponsors in our parish’s RCIA program. On two different meetings, the person leading the lesson that night has said things that were incorrect. The first time, it was “minor” and slightly off-topic to begin with, so I just kept my mouth shut. However, this time around, we were going over the Trinity and she said that there are not persons of the Trinity, but essences since we know that they are not persons like us. I know this was wrong and my husband immediately looked it up in the Catechism, and I knew how to explain it (I took a class in which we learned about the Trinity), but I didn’t want to put conflict in. Now, this woman did add that this was her opinion, but the whole RCIA program seems to be based on opinion and very little substance is taught.

So, my question is, do I speak up? At that moment? in private? The other leaders of this are all way older than my husband and myself (by 30 yrs at least), so I feel akward speaking up. How do I approach something like this?

I would not directly contradict her in class. But I would step in with the remark that this is difficult to understand and that those who want to be very clear on this should read paragraphs XXX of the Catechism, where Essence of God and the three Persons of the Holy Trinity are beautifully explained. Photocopy the pages for distribution at the next session.

 

[McKevin]

I’m not sure if this is the correct forum to post this, but if it isn’t, it will be moved .

Anyway, my husband and I are “team members” and sponsors in our parish’s RCIA program. On two different meetings, the person leading the lesson that night has said things that were incorrect. The first time, it was “minor” and slightly off-topic to begin with, so I just kept my mouth shut. However, this time around, we were going over the Trinity and she said that there are not persons of the Trinity, but essences since we know that they are not persons like us. I know this was wrong and my husband immediately looked it up in the Catechism, and I knew how to explain it (I took a class in which we learned about the Trinity), but I didn’t want to put conflict in. Now, this woman did add that this was her opinion, but the whole RCIA program seems to be based on opinion and very little substance is taught.

So, my question is, do I speak up? At that moment? in private? The other leaders of this are all way older than my husband and myself (by 30 yrs at least), so I feel akward speaking up. How do I approach something like this?

I would take the Catechism to class with me from now on and gently correct the teacher by saying something like…“in addition to your thoughts, Mrs. Jones, the Cathechism says and I quote…” This way you let the Truth be known without putting down the teacher or causing a tense moment in the class.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…So, my question is, do I speak up? At that moment? in private? The other leaders of this are all way older than my husband and myself (by 30 yrs at least), so I feel akward speaking up. How do I approach something like this?

If it were me, I’d speak up right then and there. It may help clarify, and keep catechumens from learning incorrect information. But I would try to do so gently. I like mercygate’s idea of simply asking questions with reference to the catechism.

I had a similar experience in a Bible study by a Catholic scholar from another parish. He was giving his presentation (from a book he authored but was still in draft), to a group of Catholic and non-Catholics, meeting at my parish. I went to learn. He began to teach several things contrary to the teaching in the Catechism. After one or two times, I felt compelled to interject.

I tried to be polite and said I didn’t intend to be argumentative, but wanted those in the room, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, to understand that what was being presenting was NOT Catholic teaching and was contrary to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My concern was that if nobody spoke out (and it appeared nobody was), then the audience would be left with a false impression that what they received was Catholic. After I spoke out, others seemed to look at me with appreciation, as it appeared others wanted to do the same but had reluctance.

The good doctor of Sacred Scripture proceeded to ask me if I was a Bible scholar. I said no, but quietly told him I was a catechist, and those who wrote the Catechism are indeed Bible scholars.

He later emailed me and admitted that his presentation was indeed contrary to the Catechism, and that he would re-work the draft to his book.

 

[puzzleannie]

well speaking from the perspective of the RCIA director and catechist, if I said something openly heretical like denying a foundational Truth such as the Trinity and the nature of God I would expect an immediate challenge from anyone one in the room–candidate, sponsor, guest–who knows better. This cannot be allowed to stand. This person is leading people astray in the most pernicious way, which Jesus himself warns against, when he says that those who mislead little ones (meaning not only children but those ignorant of the faith) astray would be better off had they never been born, and should be cast into the pit. Please let your pastor know immediately. Record exactly what she said, in what context, so he knows what is going on. If he does not change the situation it is your duty to go to the diocese.

It is not in my nature but the first time I challenged such a teaching was to speak out against a priest who was giving a class to very new catechists, and teaching rank error about the Gospels. It was the beginning of my own conversion from “when I feel like it” Catholic to real practicing believing Catholic. this priest was unorthodox even by the standards of the very liberal diocese we were in at the time. He has since left the priesthood for unstated reasons.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

 

[mercygate]

Wouldn’tcha know it? My two favorite apologist/catechists both affirm my own view of what needs to happen in a case like this.

lotusblossom: you will never go wrong by listening to puzzleannie or itsjustdave1988!

 

[Texas_Roofer]

There are 2 issues here

1. The class is not being taught correctly

• request ( within the Team) the teachings sight the catechism and then notify the Priest if improvements do not occur
• during Q&A bring up that some confusion occurred on a previous issue and revisit it with the catechism

1. You are on the team
   In my opinion you signed on for some responsibly and now you have to live it.

• speak with the catechists about accidental deviation from the catechism
• speak with the team about accidental deviation from the catechism
• if the situation does not improve you have start up the ladder on behalf of the catechumens and candidates. but this is usually not necessary so try to relax.

A similar past discussion
. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=112099&referrerid=36285

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

They do have standards but many small parishes lack funding and become dependent on volunteers (even bad ones). People with agendas often find RCIA as a platform. Often the deviant does not realize what they have done, often many clear their pent up anger, get over it, head to the confessional and become in communion with the church. Please understand if 95% of RCIA is good to great the forum discusses the 5% which are not. So try to understand the forum deals with these problems.

 

[Mommyof02green]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

Some parishes have good programs establish, where everything is laid out for the volunteer. The whole lesson plan is done, there a list of questions to ask the “students” along with the “answers” to look for. So if the Volunteer reads/reviews the materials they will have no problem teaching. Other parishes rely on the Volunteer to come up with the material. Which can be a challenge if the Volunteer is a “novice” or has their own misunderstanding about the faith, because they themselves were taught in error.

Many of our priests rely on these volunteers and have hope that they are being truthful to the faith. My advice is if you find that there are errors being taught in the RCIA or CCD classes bring it to the attention of the instructor. In many cases they are well meaning people that are doing the best they can do with the knowledge and understanding that they have.

Sometime they feel that they should have all the answers, seeing they are leading the group. So in fear of not having an answer, they may say something that isn’t totally right. In my opinion it’s better to say “I don’t know, but let me give you answer next week”.

If this doesn’t work then bring it to the attention of the parish priest or the parish DRE. They may not realize what is going on.

I only can tell you what is required from my dioceses to teach: My dioceses, doesn’t make it mandatory for volunteers CCD/RICA to have certification BEFORE they start teaching. Volunteers are required to start classes after they start teaching at a minimum rate of 1 class per year. (There are around 20 different classes to take. So if a person did the minimum of 1 class per year it would take them 20 years to get certified.)

The only requirement, in my dioceses, to START volunteer teach CCD/RICA is to be a Catholic, and Active his/her faith, meaning going to Church and Confession regularly. Also, they must have a lifestyle that is in accordance to the faith.

Ex: Single person, cannot be living with a boy/girlfriend. They also cannot promote things like sex before marriage, abortions, birth control, gay lifestyle etc.

Also to start teaching a person must pass to a background check and be finger printed. The background check and fingerprinting is something my dioceses has done since 1993/1994. Fingerprinting is only needed once. However, background checks are done every year, again this is something has been done in my dioceses since 1993/1994.

In my dioceses, after a person starts teaching then they are required to go to certification classes, which as I pointed out it can take quite of few years to complete the classes, especially if the volunteer only has the time and money (if the parish makes volunteer pay) to do one class per year.

Some parishes in my area can pay for the Volunteer’s certification classes, while other parish can’t so the Volunteer has to pay for them. Some Volunteer’s have plenty of time to go to several classes per year; other can’t do more then one due to work, money, and children.

So a Volunteer, in my dioceses, has to past a fingerprint, background check, active in her/his faith, and living a lifestyle in accordance to the faith to start teaching

To continue to teach the Volunteer, in my dioceses, has to continue to pass the yearly background checks, continue to be active in her/his faith, continue to live in a lifestyle in accordance to the faith, and take at least 1 class per year that can be applied towards certification.

Now I know that the requirements may seem small. Why aren’t they certified before they start teaching??? Well I can’t answer for all dioceses, however I know if my diocese made certification a requirement before teaching we would have not enough teachers.

We would loose people willing to volunteer if they were required to be certified BEFORE teaching.

Again, My advice is if you find that there are errors being taught in the RCIA or CCD classes bring it to the attention of the instructor. In many cases they are well meaning people that are doing the best they can do with the knowledge and understanding that they have.

Sometime they feel that they should have all the answers, seeing they are leading the group. So in fear of not having an answer, they may say something that isn’t totally right. In my opinion it’s better to say “I don’t know, but let me give you answer next week”.

If bringing it to the instructor’s attention doesn’t work then bring it to the attention of the parish priest or the parish DRE. They may not realize what is going on.

 

[Bonnie]

What our RCIA team does is meet during the week to discuss the next lesson. That helps the presenter for that lesson to stay on topic & have more resources available. We did have a problem with a team member who was saying inappropriate things in class. We corrected his statements in class, & after this happened several times, talked with the pastor. Then we talked to the team member. He wasn’t interested in changing his ways, so we - gently - booted him out.

It helps that our team is small - small parish - & we know each other very well. And drat - the OP made me realise that I’m one of the “older” members!

 

[puzzleannie]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

yes every diocese does require certification for DREs, RCIA directors, and catechists, not every parish complies with that rule (like most rules), primarily because strong well informed Catholics who are otherwise admirable in their practice of the faith are lamentably slow in volunteering to honor their baptismal commitment by handing on the faith. This leaves a vacuum for the agenda-setters, dissidents, and just plain ignorant but well-meaning people to fill the void.

If Catholics want good anything they can have it, they just have to demand it and DO IT.

I have said this many times before, if you know and practice your faith, and are not otherwise prevented by health or other good reason, and are not in some way–catechist, evangelizing in various ways, pro-life witness, writing, exhorting etc. according to your gifts-- actively handing on the faith to the uncatechized, the unevangelized, and the next generation, you have broken a solemn promise made to God at your baptism and will be held accountable at judgement.

If you sit quietly by while error and heresy are preached and taught to the innocent without protesting, you are guilty by implication and association. strong words, strong topic–not my words, Christ’s

 

[maryjk]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

puzzleannie:

yes every diocese does require certification for DREs, RCIA directors, and catechists, not every parish complies with that rule (like most rules), primarily because strong well informed Catholics who are otherwise admirable in their practice of the faith are lamentably slow in volunteering to honor their baptismal commitment by handing on the faith.

Mommyof02green:

I only can tell you what is required from my dioceses to teach: My dioceses, doesn’t make it mandatory for volunteers CCD/RICA to have certification BEFORE they start teaching. Volunteers are required to start classes after they start teaching at a minimum rate of 1 class per year. (There are around 20 different classes to take. So if a person did the minimum of 1 class per year it would take them 20 years to get certified.)

Our parish also allows volunteers to teach before they have their certification. Volunteers also need about 20 classes. These classes are offered about twice a year, always out of town, always on a weekend. When you go, you are able to take 2 to 3 classes each time.

So, I taught for a while. But although I have time to teach, I do not have time for an out of town trip, twice a year for the next five years.

And the people that do have certification, don’t always teach the true Church teaching. I just had a discusion about dance during the Mass. And our DRE didn’t see a problem with it. And she teaches some of the classes.

 

[Truthstalker]

And when the instructor proclaims clear heresy in front of the class (there is no Trinity, Islam is as good as Catholicism), and you call him on it in front of the priest, and the priest does nothing, and you complain to both, and then to the diocese, and the diocese does NOTHING, you conclude the wolves are eating the sheep, not that they are taking over the church, but that it is a done deal, and that the mindset of protecting the clergy over and against the laity is still there, as shown in the child abuse scandals, it is clear the Church still hasn’t learned, and is not a safe place, and makes a mockery of its own beliefs and teachings.

You have to go through RCIA to become Catholic (so I’ve been told). You have to submit to those over you - meaning, it seems, to consent to heresy and bad teaching and bad pastoring.

I entered RCIA in good faith, hoping to determine whether Catholicism is Truth. I encountered lies and rubbish and indifference to what the wolves are doing to the sheep. The strongest argument against the Catholic Church is Catholics. If I ever become Catholic it will be in spite of both Catholics and the Church.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

And when the instructor proclaims clear heresy in front of the class (there is no Trinity, Islam is as good as Catholicism), and you call him on it in front of the priest, and the priest does nothing, and you complain to both, and then to the diocese, and the diocese does NOTHING, you conclude the wolves are eating the sheep, not that they are taking over the church, but that it is a done deal, and that the mindset of protecting the clergy over and against the laity is still there, as shown in the child abuse scandals, it is clear the Church still hasn’t learned, and is not a safe place, and makes a mockery of its own beliefs and teachings.

You have to go through RCIA to become Catholic (so I’ve been told). You have to submit to those over you - meaning, it seems, to consent to heresy and bad teaching and bad pastoring.

I entered RCIA in good faith, hoping to determine whether Catholicism is Truth. I encountered lies and rubbish and indifference to what the wolves are doing to the sheep. The strongest argument against the Catholic Church is Catholics. If I ever become Catholic it will be in spite of both Catholics and the Church.

Sorry but this wrong, wrong, wrong

First you do not submit to other humans, you respect proper authority, there is a big difference.

Second do not confuse miscommunication with false teaching. Often catchiest are simply being misunderstood so ask a respectful question, usually the catchiest is thankful to know there is a misunderstanding which can then be explained. I find it impossible to believe the diocese, priest, DRE, and catchiest agree there is no Trinity.

Three: These wolves can not eat these sheep. I understand you may need a base knowledge to accept this, however it is true. The more you and others learn about Catholism the more you can not be separated from God or his divine plan.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you follow God, see you really control your own destiny

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I read and hear about alot bad things that happen with RCIA classes I wonder why the church doesnt require certification to teach at RCIA or do you?

All catechists must be certified to teach in the Church. In many places that “certification” comes in the form of the DRE allowing them to teach. Every presentation should be pre-viewed by the team members well versed in the teachings of the Church. Anything incorrect or unclear must be corrected. There must be lots of clear handouts coverings the topic and referencing the Catechism passages as well as other Church documents and sources. Anything that is misrepresented must be corrected and quickly. There must be a doctrinal watchdog in Adult programs. It is not a popular position to be in but we must provide for it. “My teaching is not my own, but the one who sent me!”

 

[Truthstalker]

Sorry but this wrong, wrong, wrong Thank you for blaming the victim.

First you do not submit to other humans, you respect proper authority, there is a big difference.You need to read your Bible. Look at Romans 13:1, and Hebrews 13:14, for example.

Second do not confuse miscommunication with false teaching. Often catchiest are simply being misunderstood so ask a respectful question, usually the catchiest is thankful to know there is a misunderstanding which can then be explained. I find it impossible to believe the diocese, priest, DRE, and catchiest agree there is no Trinity.It was very clear he was teaching modalism. He passed out the Muslim names of God in a handout as part of the class materials - we were told to envision God any way we wanted, and that the idea of the Trinity was “old school” and we knew better now. This was said in front of the priest and I reported matters in detail to the diocese. There is no confusion. I asked him what he meant. He was very clear. I was clear. The lack of action is clear.

Three: These wolves can not eat these sheep. I understand you may need a base knowledge to accept this, however it is true. The more you and others learn about Catholism the more you can not be separated from God or his divine plan.
Read Acts 20:29 sometime. Being complacent while those around you are being devoured is the worst thing you can do. Paul warned about false teachers, about some of those in authority being wolves. When he denies things settled at Nicaea in 325 AD, and teaches things in a Catholic Church that are worse than the Arian heresy, and the bishop doing NOTHING is a horrendous red flag. Especially when the priest is present at the confrontation and does NOTHING except to say he hopes I will take RCIA again sometime - like he is clueless to the issue. What is wrong with this picture?. Damnable things are taught in the Catholic Church and no one does anything about it, except for one Protestant who protests and walks out. And still nothing is done.
Ultimately it comes down to whether you follow God, see you really control your own destiny

Why do you think I am hesitating at joining the Catholic Church, seeing what it is like with my own eyes?

All catechists must be certified to teach in the Church. In many places that “certification” comes in the form of the DRE allowing them to teach. Every presentation should be pre-viewed by the team members well versed in the teachings of the Church. Anything incorrect or unclear must be corrected. There must be lots of clear handouts coverings the topic and referencing the Catechism passages as well as other Church documents and sources. Anything that is misrepresented must be corrected and quickly. There must be a doctrinal watchdog in Adult programs. It is not a popular position to be in but we must provide for it. “My teaching is not my own, but the one who sent me!”

I think that is the ideal but there is a breakdown in the system somewhere. Lack of volunteers? Unbelieving priests? Unbelieving bishops and bureaucracy? It takes a lot more faith than I have to believe this is the only Church, protected from error, when I see what actually happens in one.

 

[Pug]

Anyway, my husband and I are “team members”

As a team member myself, I’d say speak up at the time. You are supposed to help in this way. For example, if the presenter is talking about private revelation and you are concerned that they failed to make clear that you don’t have to believe it, I will speak up and say, “and, of course, you are not required to believe it.” That’s it, very short. The speaker usually will then agree or nod.

If the person says something that appears to be, “there are no persons like us in the Trinity”, then speak up and say “person” can be a specific theological word. Illustrate “person” used in an official statement about the Trinity. Give reference for the interested. Always have a CCC with you. This problem may go beyond team intereaction fixes.

That you are younger is an excellent reason to speak up. Your words may resonate with certain candidates more than the older person’s words. Your contributions are valuable. As a team, you make balance.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Why do you think I am hesitating at joining the Catholic Church, seeing what it is like with my own eyes?

I think that is the ideal but there is a breakdown in the system somewhere. Lack of volunteers? Unbelieving priests? Unbelieving bishops and bureaucracy? It takes a lot more faith than I have to believe this is the only Church, protected from error, when I see what actually happens in one.

In walking out you probably did not improve the situation. It is easy to accidentally teach modalism, damning the things taught in the church, and calling for the bishop seem rather sever, are you sure that was warranted? I read the bible passages as you requested, they have not changed. You have to understand Natural Moral Law to decide when the authority is just or unjust. Have you read the Catechism yet? I hope you follow the priest’s advice. Have you considered meeting with the teacher or DRE in private, which is probably the best thing to do. Maybe in a couple of years you can be the catechist.

 

[Truthstalker]

In walking out you probably did not improve the situation.

I was so angry, and still am, that I think it was the best thing to do.

It is easy to accidentally teach modalism

This was no accident. “The difference between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are how we approach God - there is no real difference. For example, this woman is a daughter and a sister and a mother - right? The Trinity is like that. You can think of God as Mother. We need to break out of our preconceptions of what God is like. There are no separate persons in God.” That’s not quite a direct quote, but close.

are you sure that was warranted?

Yes.

Have you read the Catechism yet?

I’ve read parts of it.

I think sticking my hand in a garbage disposal would be a better use of my time than RCIA. That opinion would have to change before I approach it again.

Have you considered meeting with the teacher or DRE in private, which is probably the best thing to do

No interest on their part.