When That Day Comes ...

[Reuben_J]

Joel 4:17-21
17 ‘Then you will know that I am Yahweh your God residing on Zion, my holy mountain. Jerusalem will then be a sanctuary, no foreigners will overrun it ever again.’
**18 When that Day comes, the mountains will run with new wine and the hills will flow with milk, and all the stream-beds of Judah will run with water. A fountain will spring from Yahweh’s Temple and water the Gorge of the Acacias.
19 Egypt will become a desolation, and Edom a desert waste on account of the violence done to the children of Judah whose innocent blood they shed in their country.
20 But Judah will be inhabited for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation!
21 ‘I shall avenge their blood and let none go unpunished,’ and Yahweh will dwell in Zion. **

The word of God prophesied by Joel give a beautiful promise when the Day will come.

Going by this word, surely the people of Israel looked forward hopefully for this ‘Day’ and for the promise to come to pass. It did not materialize in their time.

When Jesus came, he mentioned that he would come again. The early Christians obviously thought that it would happen in their time. It did not.

It had been two thousand years ago since Jesus and much more since the prophecy of Joel, and the Day has not come. We as the people of faith perhaps resign to the fact that it will not even come to pass during our generation.

It is a mystery really that we are literally people who wait.

Then Jesus said, ‘More blessed still are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’ Luke 11:28

Sure we hear the word and want to be able to hear it and keep it. That is not to be questioned. We are blessed when we keep the word.

But aren’t we supposed to have an inkling when the prophecy (Joel 4) will come to pass? What would it be to hear and keep the word but the prophecy had been there for millenniums and no sign that it will ever come?

I put this thread in the apologetic section hoping that some of you can comment on this and perhaps to encourage.

God bless you.

 

[Jimthedre]

Hello Reuben,

The truth of the matter is that we have no idea when the world will come to an end. Our Lord advised his disciples to be always watchful. We do know with certainty that we will all be meeting Our Lord soon because life on earth is not forever. For those who enter Heaven, it may be possible that they will experience both their Personal and Final Judgments at that time since they will be entering an eternal state.

We also have to keep in mind that prophecy in the Old Testament primarily (if not exclusively) points to Christ and His Church. This means that the literal sense of Scripture will not always provide the fullest sense, particularly when reading allegorical or anagogical passages. Jerusalem is often referred to in prophetic passages as both a physical location as well as the “new Jerusalem” which is the Church.

In my humble opinion, the verses you cited refer to the Paschal Sacrifice. Water flowed from the side of Our Lord. New wine (the Body and Blood of Our Lord) and milk ( a symbol of life) are mentioned along with God dwelling forever in Jerusalem (possible reference to the Church). Again, these are possible interpretations and not necessarily definitive.

God Bless,

Jim

 

[EnterCanaan]

This is also a parable. Zion is a picture of the Kingdom of God. The mountain is a picture of the Kingdom of God. Jerusalem and Judah are pictures pointing to the Kingdom of God. New wine, milk, water, and fountain are all parables pointing to the word of God, the Gospel. Water is associated with the word of God, which is the water of eternal life.

Egypt is a parable pointing to the damned and Satan. Edom is a parable pointing to the unsaved and Satan. Babylon which isn’t mentioned in this verse, is a picture pointing to the unsaved, the damned, the ruler of Babylon is always a parable pointing to the Devil; as the Devil has been given authority to be ruler of the world.

Revelation 12:9
So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:2
Now the beast[Satan] which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon[Satan] gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.[authority over the world, and unsaved]

Revelation 13:4
So they[the world] worshiped the dragon[Satan] who gave authority to the beast[Satan]; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

Revelation 13:7
It was granted to him[Satan] to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.[The world]

Revelation 13:12
And he[Satan] exercises all the authority of the first beast[Satan] in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.[The deathblow dealt to Satan when Christ died on the Cross is now healed]

What does this all mean? The prophecy in Jude is talking about the eternal church of God, the spiritual church in which all the true believers will be apart of and will be uncorrupted by sin and the foreigners, which is Satan, as Satan is the king of all those who are unsaved, will never again be. In other words, all Sin, which is the nature of Satan, will be erased in the lake of fire, on that Day.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them[the world], was cast into the lake of fire[the 2nd death] and brimstone where the beast[Satan] and the false prophet[Satan] are. And they will be tormented day and night *forever (to ever) and ever.[Should be ‘to’ ever and ever]

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death[hell] and Hades[death] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[Remember ‘to’ ever and ever. The 2nd death is the end of hell, death, Satan, sin, the world and all of her works. Hell, which is spiritual death, is not forever, it is ‘to’ ever, and on that Day, that will be the ‘to’ ever which is in question. In other words, the end of everything is the end of time.]

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life[Predestinated] was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars[the unsaved] shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The prophecy in Jude is referring to that great and terrible day of judgment in which our Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory, on that day the wheat will be separated from the tares and the saved will be gathered up[the rapture] to Christ who will come on the clouds and the sign of his return will not go unnoticed like a great lighting seen from east to west, and with the sound of a great trumpet[the word of God] and a sword will be protruding from His mouth[the word of God, is a judge unto us every day of our lives, the sword is a parable pointing to the word of God and the word of God brings life unto life and death unto death like a sword; the sword which is the word of God, is His judgment] and the Lord which is the word of God will cast judgment in an instant as all those who are chosen and true believers will at that moment be caught up and given new resurrected bodies, signs of His return will be worldwide as a great earthquake will shake the earth, breaking her, and casting the unsaved dead from their place of rest out of their graves and onto the ground for all to see as a great shame to them. A final shame of their rebellion against God. the saved dead bodies will appear as new resurrected bodies and be caught up with Christ. This will literlly be seen by all those left behind on that day, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth[sorrow] at the knowledge that they have been left behind. On that Day, the salvation plan of God will be complete as all those true believers who received their new resurrected souls will be united with their new resurrected bodies. Complete. We will be caught up and return to heaven where the eternal true spiritual church is and remains as is described in parables such as Zion, the Holy Mountain, Jerusalem and Judah.

After this instant the judgment of God will be complete and all those foreigners who are ruled by Satan, even unbeknown to them, it makes no difference, as Satan is spiritual and unseen, it is still true and sad, these people will be judged and they will know, KNOW, that they are doomed for the lake of fire which is the 2nd death. Before that happens though their final torment, besides knowledge they are forever dead, is an additional torment for exactly five months after the day of Judgment.

Rev 9:4
They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Rev 9:5
And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. And their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

Rev 9:6
In those days[judgment day] men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.[they will be tormented with all the plagues written about in the bible, very sad]

Immediately following the five months everything left behind is cast into the lake of Fire, and they are gone in a blink of an eye forever. After that God creates a new heaven and a new earth and what remains is only the word of God, which will flow like a fountain and river forever and ever.

 

[Luke65]

Sure we hear the word and want to be able to hear it and keep it. That is not to be questioned. We are blessed when we keep the word.

But aren’t we supposed to have an inkling when the prophecy (Joel 4) will come to pass? What would it be to hear and keep the word but the prophecy had been there for millenniums and no sign that it will ever come?

“No sign”?

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Matthew 24:32-34)

There’s our sign, my brother. The “fig tree” - Israel - coming back to life (c.f. Matt. 21:19) was a one time only fulfillment of this prophecy. And this timing is in agreement with this:

“He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him.” (Hosea 6:2)

“But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years” (2 Peter 3:8)

And there are many other signs. You might be interested in the best book on Catholic prophecy, Trial, Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch. God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

Hello Reuben,

The truth of the matter is that we have no idea when the world will come to an end. Our Lord advised his disciples to be always watchful. We do know with certainty that we will all be meeting Our Lord soon because life on earth is not forever. For those who enter Heaven, it may be possible that they will experience both their Personal and Final Judgments at that time since they will be entering an eternal state.

We also have to keep in mind that prophecy in the Old Testament primarily (if not exclusively) points to Christ and His Church. This means that the literal sense of Scripture will not always provide the fullest sense, particularly when reading allegorical or anagogical passages. Jerusalem is often referred to in prophetic passages as both a physical location as well as the “new Jerusalem” which is the Church.

In my humble opinion, the verses you cited refer to the Paschal Sacrifice. Water flowed from the side of Our Lord. New wine (the Body and Blood of Our Lord) and milk ( a symbol of life) are mentioned along with God dwelling forever in Jerusalem (possible reference to the Church). Again, these are possible interpretations and not necessarily definitive.

God Bless,

Jim

Thanks Jim. You know, I like to hear what you have said. The second paragraph especially is quite standard explanation and understanding of the OT prophecy. I don’t want to sound stubborn (because I believe in that) but because it seems to me merely the explanation (for the prophecy). It’s very speculative, as if we want to tie the prohecy to what we believe and even to Jesus and then feel satisfied that the prophecy is fullfilled or that we understand it.

Because it is not definitive, that’s my problem as I ponder on these words. Joel was quite specific and if we are to understand that literally it is nowhere near being fullfilled.

Again about that it refers to the Paschal Sacrifice. A non-believer see it and surely feel it could refer just to about anything.

If you could expound more on the passage (Joel 4:18 onward). What was he saying and why he said it?

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

This is also a parable. Zion is a picture of the Kingdom of God. The mountain is a picture of the Kingdom of God. Jerusalem and Judah are pictures pointing to the Kingdom of God. New wine, milk, water, and fountain are all parables pointing to the word of God, the Gospel. Water is associated with the word of God, which is the water of eternal life.

Egypt is a parable pointing to the damned and Satan. Edom is a parable pointing to the unsaved and Satan. Babylon which isn’t mentioned in this verse, is a picture pointing to the unsaved, the damned, the ruler of Babylon is always a parable pointing to the Devil; as the Devil has been given authority to be ruler of the world.

…

Immediately following the five months everything left behind is cast into the lake of Fire, and they are gone in a blink of an eye forever. After that God creates a new heaven and a new earth and what remains is only the word of God, which will flow like a fountain and river forever and ever.

Hi. Thanks.

Again, like I said to Jim, the explanation is speculative. I do not disbelieve you but how do you connect the the words in Joel to the meanings you mentioned especially water as the word of God?

Water is mentioned as never to make you thirsty (Isaiah) and that flows from the temple is life giving (Ezekiel). This is alluded to by Jesus as he spoke to the Samaritan woman by the well. Would you not think it points more to the Holy Spirit rather than the word of God?

So there is no way that Joel’s prophecy is to happen literally?

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

“No sign”?

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Matthew 24:32-34)

There’s our sign, my brother. The “fig tree” - Israel - coming back to life (c.f. Matt. 21:19) was a one time only fulfillment of this prophecy. And this timing is in agreement with this:

“He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, that we may live before Him.” (Hosea 6:2)

“But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years” (2 Peter 3:8)

And there are many other signs. You might be interested in the best book on Catholic prophecy, Trial, Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch. God bless.

Thanks. That’s a good insight of Mt24:32-34. I learn something here as when I come across this verse, I took cursory glance and did not paid much attention to it. Goodness, Jesus was talking about himself!

Frankly, God’s word is sometimes mysterious and it is at this moment that how I wish it could be straight forward and literal.

The Joel passage still baffles me but perhaps I am unable to hear God speaks to me. Perhaps I am distracted by too much noise and in the din God’s voice is faint and escape my spirit. I came across the reading because it’s going to be the Saturday daily reading.

Please pray for me that God may bless me with good understanding of his word so that as I hear it I can keep it knowing what it means and wants me to do.

God bless.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Jesus said “this generation shall not come to pass.” In the Greek supposedly that refers to a more specific time of 40 years. He died in AD 30, and 40 years later Jerusalem fell. It is pretty widely believed by most Catholic scholarship, traditional or otherwise, that the olivet discourse is not referring to the end of the world.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jesus said “this generation shall not come to pass.” In the Greek supposedly that refers to a more specific time of 40 years. He died in AD 30, and 40 years later Jerusalem fell. It is pretty widely believed by most Catholic scholarship, traditional or otherwise, that the olivet discourse is not referring to the end of the world.

Though I do not ask about this passage and Luke65 speaks on it as a response to my OP, I find it is interesting. I am confused now. I thought when listening to him (luke65) that Jesus was speaking about himself. That it was he whom he alluded to of the fig leaves that come out. He died and rose from the dead. This happen during their generation. Or was it too soon?

Your explanation now seems to be at odd with Luke’s if my understanding of his explanation is correct.

In any case, what did Jesus meant about the fig tree? OK, Jerusalem,which Jesus prophecized that it would be destroyed because they killed the prophets and now it would be ruined and desolate.

As in the Book of Revelation, how convinced are we that all these prophecies truly to be meant as explained? With the possibility that it could not have meant what Jesus had in mind, are not we maybe banking on an understanding of the word which is not meant to be?

What would our attitude be when faced with verse like this? Jesus said, blessed are you who hear and keep the word. How do we do that if we are not sure what is it (the word spoken)?

God bless.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

First off, don’t ever get down on yourself for having difficulty with passages of Scripture. The greatest theological minds have struggled with the book of Revelation as well as the words of Jesus, and there are still many different interpretations. The Church officially seems to go with an amillenial interpretation, others have variations theoreof. Scott Hahn and Michael Barber have a different interpretation than traditional amillenialism.

However, the olivet discourse in Matthew is believed by the majority of scholars, amillenial or otherwise, to refer to the literal destruction of Jerusalem. I am not saying this is the only possible interpretation, but I do believe it makes the more sense out of Jesus’ language, and I will present why.

First off, Jesus says the following:

Matthew 24:32-34: “And from the fig tree, learn the parable. When its branch is tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Amen I say to you that this generation will not pass away until all these things happen.”

Now the important thing to notice is that no special significance is attached to the fig tree per se. He is merely saying that as leaves coming forth from a tender branch is a sign of summer, so when you see “these things” you will know that “it” is near. So what are “these things?” Well if you read further back in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus talks about wars and rumors of wars, false prophets, eagles gathering in the sky and the “abomination of desolation” standing in the holy place. He tells them to flee for the mountains when such things occur.

So these are the signs, what do they mean? Jesus uses some pretty heavy apocalyptic celestial imagery of stars falling, etc. The thing is, all the prophets used such language to imply impending doom. Also take into account that the temple itself was considered a microcosm of the universe. The veil had stars on it, the pool represented the sea, etc.

Jesus makes reference to the abomination of desolation referred to by Daniel. The term is in the neuter gender in Greek, meaning it could refer to a person or to an event. The phrase “let him who reads understand” refers to those who read the prophecy in Daniel to understand the nature of the abomination of desolation. Daniel’s prophecy referred to a time when all “sacrifice and offering” cease (Dan. 9:27) or when the “continual sacrifice” is replaced. Matthew’s phrase “he who reads,” he is indicating that similar events could take place at any time after his writing,and could be applied to a future event, not simply to Daniel’s “near future.”

So what exactly happened to the temple that Daniel predicted? Gentile ruler Antiochus Epiphanes IV burned Jerusalem, plundered the Temple of its sacred articles, and erected an idol to the Greek god Zeus within its precincts.

Now Jesus has been very precise in his Greek, saying “this generation.” Many have pointed out that in the Greek a generation refers more specifically to a period of forty years. Christ dies in A.D. 30, and Jerusalem fell in A.D. 70. Any other interpretation without at least having a basis in a first century literal fulfillment would seem to make a liar out of Jesus.

Josephus is the main resource we have for the events of what transpired when Rome took Jerusalem. They slaughtered the captives, destroyed the Temple (although not by Titus’ command), and in a final desecration to the Temple, sacrifice was made to the Roman standards in the Temple court.

I find the parallels quite intriguing. Particular since one of the signs was “eagles gathering in the sky.” The Roman legions carried eagles as their symbol of the empire, and elsewhere in the OT eagles refer to pagan nations that brought suffering upon Israel (Deut. 28:49; Hab 1:8,c.f. Hos. 8:1).

It is also an interesting fact that apparently the Christians took Jesus’ command to “flee into the mountains” quite seriously, since do date it is not believed that one single Christian was killed in the fall of Jerusalem, although well over a million Jews were. Again, I find this little historical nugget quite intriguing.

There are quite a few parallels that are able to be made, but then I’d be writing a book haha. The Olivet Discourse would seem to be calling judgement on Jerusalem using prophetic apocalyptic language for rejecting him as the messiah. Just prior to this, at the end of chapter 23, Jesus was in the temple, and said that they would not see him from now until they would say “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.” He is saying that the way to avoid the desolation he will speak of immediately after is to accept him as the messiah. Then he walks out. There is the desolation, since Jesus is God, and his presence just left the Temple, not to return until their acceptance. Then comes the abomination of the Romans. The “end” being spoken of in the subsequent Olivet Discourse speaks of the ending of the Old Covenant and judgement on Jerusalem for rejecting him as the messiah.

I also do believe that Jesus’ prophecy can refer to end times, but I would be very careful here, as it is often commandeered to speak of tribulations and raptures, etc. Jesus seems to have a very literal idea of what’s going to happen, the early Christians appeared to understand him in this regard, and Jesus seemed to be using language to highlight that these events would transpire very quickly.

Hope that helps

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Nathan, thanks for a beautiful insight into Matthew 24:32-34. Like I said I often came across these verses but think nothing much about it as if I wouldn’t know where to place it exactly. And in sharing I would not use them because I could not say something specific or inspired about them. I could have open up various commentaries but I rather hear from posters who can expound on these verses with their own words. You had done an excellent job there and I appreciate that.

What you said make more sense to me as Jesus was also prophesying the fall of Jerusalem in Mt 23:37-39 in a more specific language. Incidentally these are some of my favorite verses, very good for use in exhortation and of course exploiting the drama about Jesus having had to weep.

In any case Mt24:32-34 (the fig leave) came as a bonus as it was brought up by Luke65. I initially was asking about Joel 4:18 onward where he prophesized that “When that Day comes, the mountains will run with new wine and the hills will flow with milk, and all the stream-beds of Judah will run with water. A fountain will spring from Yahweh’s Temple and water the Gorge of the Acacias …”.

Eventually I know that we have to understand the Bible in context and how they add up. I just want to make sure - I don’t’ know, atheists have a way of dialoguing with you and they being skeptical about the Scripture would see it from the eyes of unbelievers. They would shoot you down pretty quickly if there is a hint you’re trying to speculate with your explanation of the word.

Since we are at it, what would be your thought on last Saturday reading, especially regarding the promise made by Joel? Don’t you have a problem seeing that it did not happen during the time of the Israelites? Why would he make a promise if it did not happen during the generation of his hearers?

God bless you.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I guess this would depend on whether or not you believe the Church is the New Jerusalem. God Bless.

 

[Luke65]

Thanks. That’s a good insight of Mt24:32-34. I learn something here as when I come across this verse, I took cursory glance and did not paid much attention to it. Goodness, Jesus was talking about himself!

Frankly, God’s word is sometimes mysterious and it is at this moment that how I wish it could be straight forward and literal.

Hi Reuben, sorry I forgot about this thread, I haven’t been getting some of the email notifications. The first thing I would say is not to worry about all the things in the Bible that you don’t understand yet, because no matter how much you learn, there’s always more! Just make sure you know the basics, the doctrines of the faith, and then progress from there.

As far as the passage in Joel (ch. 3) goes, it has it’s fulfillment in both the First Coming of Christ and the Second Coming. The first meaning is more metaphorical, that is spiritual. As others have pointed out, the New Jerusalem is the Church. In the OT prophecies being fulfilled under the New Covenant, the various names for Israel refer to the Church, which is now the “Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16). When you interpret those prophecies in that light, then you will understand them better.

Here is Fr. Haydock’s Bible commentary which should help you a lot:

haydock1859.tripod.com/index.html

 

[Luke65]

Since we are at it, what would be your thought on last Saturday reading, especially regarding the promise made by Joel? Don’t you have a problem seeing that it did not happen during the time of the Israelites? Why would he make a promise if it did not happen during the generation of his hearers?

God bless you.

As Nathan pointed out, the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple. But the one thing that needs to be stressed is that the Olivet Discourse is actually a dual prophecy, it has two fulfillments - God’s judgment on Israel, and God’s judgment on the world. If you look at the beginning of the passage, you’ll see that the disciples asked Jesus both questions: “when will this happen [the destruction of the Temple], and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matt. 24:3)

The one thing I would disagree with Nathan on is that the fig tree is very significant. Our Lord had just cursed the fig tree saying, “May you never bear fruit again!” (Matt. 21:19) And if you look at the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse, you’ll notice it still has no fruit - just twigs and leaves: “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.” (Matt. 24:32) This is the same fig tree. And the Fathers taught that the fig tree was Israel, as we see in the OT (Hosea 9:10). And this is one sign that was not fulfilled until our time. See Haydock’s commentary on this passage too, so you can get a fuller understanding. God bless.