When the body dies, what is left?

[Carl_K]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

 

[marymary1975]

One thing that I know for sure is that when the physical body does we lose our free will. This is the reason why you have until your last minute alive to repent but the minute after you die you cannot repent anymore. Your free will is gone so you are basically bounded to the decisions you took before dying. I was explained this in more detailed at a theology class but it was an extremely difficult subject and explanation that the only way I can explain it is that we lose our free will. Having lost our free will I highly doubt that we keep our memories and I highly doubt we will remain with the same personality. I know that we will end up basically attached to the decisions we took in life which I think would be for example, if during life you accepted God and followed him and lived sharing love and peace pretty much that peaceful state will continue and then you will be able to be near God. If you for example were evil and greedy and hateful that same state will follow you and hunt your soul. That until the second judgment. It is an interesting subject so I would also love to read other’s opinion but so far I think we will lose many of our faculties like memories and many details of our personality.

 

[John_Martin]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Personality - you are still yourself, but without affected behavior
Memories - reviewing of the past as in visualizing it is gone, ,
Gender - your soul learned your gender in coming to know its body that it animated.
Love - the “love” of chemicals is actually appetite. Love in the soul is the movement to union with what is known to be desirable (good), which we need a body to do also.
Sing praises to God - prior to the resurrection, in heaven, we will simply know the goodness of God and desire to sing, and God will inspire us to know that he knows our desire. In the resurrection from the dead we will again be able to act out our love and sing praises.

See this: softvocation.org/2014/09/24/the-last-things-part-i/

 

[lmelahn]

One thing that I know for sure is that when the physical body does we lose our free will. This is the reason why you have until your last minute alive to repent but the minute after you die you cannot repent anymore. Your free will is gone so you are basically bounded to the decisions you took before dying. I was explained this in more detailed at a theology class but it was an extremely difficult subject and explanation that the only way I can explain it is that we lose our free will. Having lost our free will I highly doubt that we keep our memories and I highly doubt we will remain with the same personality. I know that we will end up basically attached to the decisions we took in life which I think would be for example, if during life you accepted God and followed him and lived sharing love and peace pretty much that peaceful state will continue and then you will be able to be near God. If you for example were evil and greedy and hateful that same state will follow you and hunt your soul. That until the second judgment. It is an interesting subject so I would also love to read other’s opinion but so far I think we will lose many of our faculties like memories and many details of our personality.

Hello marymary,

That is not exactly correct.

I think what you meant is that our time of trial, by which we choose whether to be in friendship with God or not, will be over.

However, we don’t lose our free will, because free will does not reduce to choosing between good and evil. In heaven, for example, we will be free to choose among good things.

Rather, when we die, we come to the presence of God, and He is so good and compelling that (if we are in the state of grace) we are drawn to Him irresistibly. Hence, once we die, those of us who are in the state of grace will be unable to sin.

(Unfortunately, those who persist in resisting the grace of God will receive the bitter fruit of their rebellion. They will forever see that God is good and compelling, but, by their choice, will be unable to come to Him, and hence be eternally frustrated.)

 

[lmelahn]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

The short answer is “all of the above.” We lose neither personality, memories, nor sex (i.e., men continue to be men, and women continue to be women, although Jesus teaches us that there will be no marriage or begetting of children in Heaven–there will be something even better).

Love is much, much more than chemical reactions: after all, God is love (and He was that even before the Incarnation), and by nature He has no body and hence no chemicals.

It is true that without our bodies, we are handicapped, and so we do not know how we will experience life after death, before the General Resurrection. (I don’t know how reliable the so-called near-death experiences are, but they seem to indicate that souls separated from their bodies retain all their faculties; if anything, they seem to be superior.)

However, it is very important to recall that the General Resurrection is a dogma of faith: at the end of time, all people (whether saved or damned) will be reunited with their bodies. Once that has been accomplished, we (at least those of use who are saved) will be able to sing God’s praises, even physically. (Of course, Heaven is better than just singing songs, but the point is, we will be able to do whatever we do now with our bodies; even more, because our resurrected bodies will not have the limitations that they have now.)

 

[marymary1975]

Hello marymary,

That is not exactly correct.

I think what you meant is that our time of trial, by which we choose whether to be in friendship with God or not, will be over.

However, we don’t lose our free will, because free will does not reduce to choosing between good and evil. In heaven, for example, we will be free to choose among good things.

Rather, when we die, we come to the presence of God, and He is so good and compelling that (if we are in the state of grace) we are drawn to Him irresistibly. Hence, once we die, those of us who are in the state of grace will be unable to sin.

(Unfortunately, those who persist in resisting the grace of God will receive the bitter fruit of their rebellion. They will forever see that God is good and compelling, but, by their choice, will be unable to come to Him, and hence be eternally frustrated.)

Hello Imelhan,

No that is not what I mean. What happens is that body and soul are one entity, they are united not separated. Our free will or the ability to make decisions is a function of our conscious mind which is also attached to our body and soul. When our body which is attached to our soul dies, because they are attached we kinda lose some abilities to call it like that. One of the things we lose is free will. Unfortunately my explanation may be confusing as I said, this was a very complicated subject and the problem may be that I am not explain it clearly but we do lose the capacity to make decisions.

You are absolutely right that those who resist Gid will indeed be eternally frustrated but they will never be able to “change their mind”, they will be eternally frustrated because of their choices on earth.

Also remenber there are two judgments and we won’t have our new glorified body until the second judgment. Again because of that we won’t have - in between our first judgment and second - the new glorified body promised by Christ we will be let’s say “lacking” a body that was attached to our soul so our nature won’t remain the same. . A soul let’s say of a saint will be happy and enjoying being closing to good but that soul won’t be able to basically make decisions. They will be in God’s grace and won’t need anything else to be happy.

 

[blase6]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

You will have a body. That is church dogma. Because your intrinsic nature as a human being is to have a spiritual soul and body. Everything else is speculation.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Fertilizer for the lawn.

 

[lmelahn]

Hello Imelhan,

No that is not what I mean. What happens is that body and soul are one entity, they are united not separated. Our free will or the ability to make decisions is a function of our conscious mind which is also attached to our body and soul. When our body which is attached to our soul dies, because they are attached we kinda lose some abilities to call it like that. One of the things we lose is free will. Unfortunately my explanation may be confusing as I said, this was a very complicated subject and the problem may be that I am not explain it clearly but we do lose the capacity to make decisions.

You are absolutely right that those who resist Gid will indeed be eternally frustrated but they will never be able to “change their mind”, they will be eternally frustrated because of their choices on earth.

Also remenber there are two judgments and we won’t have our new glorified body until the second judgment. Again because of that we won’t have - in between our first judgment and second - the new glorified body promised by Christ we will be let’s say “lacking” a body that was attached to our soul so our nature won’t remain the same. . A soul let’s say of a saint will be happy and enjoying being closing to good but that soul won’t be able to basically make decisions. They will be in God’s grace and won’t need anything else to be happy.

I agree that human beings are one and whole, and that you can’t separate the body from the soul, as if they were two entities (as Rene Descartes famously thought). However, I think it is necessary to make some clarifications:

Although, in this world, we make use of our intellects and wills through our bodies, these faculties are superior to our bodies, because they are spiritual and emanate directly from our souls.

Death is somewhat misleadingly characterized as the “separation” of the soul from the body, but in reality, it consists in the deprivation or dissolution of the body. That is not a natural condition of the soul–without help, a disembodied soul is severely handicapped–but that does not mean that the intellect and will disappear.

Since we don’t have any experience of what it is like to be deprived of our bodies, we don’t know exactly how our intellects and wills will function. However, we do know that the saints in Heaven are able to use their intellects and wills, because they intercede for us (as the miracles attributed to them attest)–an action that requires knowledge and willing, just like any other. Moreover, they have the Beatific Vision, which more than makes up for the lack of a body.

(The Church has dogmatically defined that the souls in the Heaven before the General Resurrection already enjoy the Beatific Vision fully and completely. There was a controversy over this very issue in the 14th Century.)

 

[Bahman]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Persona: Very real you which you can never know and see.

 

[tonyrey]

Fertilizer for the lawn.

Is that all?

 

[marymary1975]

I agree that human beings are one and whole, and that you can’t separate the body from the soul, as if they were two entities (as Rene Descartes famously thought). However, I think it is necessary to make some clarifications:

Although, in this world, we make use of our intellects and wills through our bodies, these faculties are superior to our bodies, because they are spiritual and emanate directly from our souls.

Death is somewhat misleadingly characterized as the “separation” of the soul from the body, but in reality, it consists in the deprivation or dissolution of the body. That is not a natural condition of the soul–without help, a disembodied soul is severely handicapped–but that does not mean that the intellect and will disappear.

Since we don’t have any experience of what it is like to be deprived of our bodies, we don’t know exactly how our intellects and wills will function. However, we do know that the saints in Heaven are able to use their intellects and wills, because they intercede for us (as the miracles attributed to them attest)–an action that requires knowledge and willing, just like any other. Moreover, they have the Beatific Vision, which more than makes up for the lack of a body.

(The Church has dogmatically defined that the souls in the Heaven before the General Resurrection already enjoy the Beatific Vision fully and completely. There was a controversy over this very issue in the 14th Century.)

What you are saying is correct particularly as to the fact that saints enjoy the beatic vision but from what I read I think you are confusing will and free will when saints intercede for us that does not require free will in the sense that saints do not have to choose whether they will intercede or no. A saint cannot say " hey I don’t like Hank so I am not interceding for him.". Saints already made that decision with their free will on earth. On earth they decided to take Jesus’ path and made a concious decision (not subconscious as free will is a function of the conciiys mind) to do good. Because they made that free decision on earth they are bound by it after death and they will enjoy the beatic vision. Saints in heaven cannot change their mind because the conscious mind that was attached to the body was lost. What happened here is that by being in God’s presence they really don’t need anything else but no they cannot say I am not praying for X or I like y better than X so I am helping only Y. On the same way they after death a soul that died unrepentant cannot change their mind and repent. A person who dies unrepentant does not have the faculty to repent after death because they cannot choose already between good and evil. That is why the church teaches that God does not condemn anyone to hell. The person goes to hell because that person choose to go to hell. God cannot forgive that person after death because that person lost its conscious mind and cannot repent. The lack of free will is what prevents the person from repenting after death because that person is bound by the decision made previously. I decided to he evil and never repent, I cannot die and think oh look indeed there is a God indeed I was wrong, sorry Jesus forgive me I was wrong. That process of thinking cannot happen anymore.

 

[Aloysium]

In heaven, we continue to have a will, but it is no longer tested.
It is perhaps a “free” will in the sense that we are not machines, but we are not free to sin.
Having chosen and knowing God, we cannot do anything but love.

 

[tonyrey]

Fertilizer for the lawn.

No reply!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

When the body dies and we are reduced to just a soul, what is left? I think our body is the way we interact with the physical world, so it seems like we’d loose an awful lot. I don’t know how much the Church itself teaches on this, but I have to imagine that there have been Catholic thinkers that have pondered this.

• do we keep our personality?
• our memories?
• gender?
• love is sometimes described as a series of chemical reactions… what is love when we no longer have chemicals?
• how can we sing praises to God if we don’t have a tongue?

I realize that a lot of this will probably be speculation, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

I’ve mentioned this too often, but the night my father died, he appeared in my room. His body was lying dead several kilometres away in the bedroom of his unit.

He materialised near the door, started with an apology, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave this almighty scream, and then just disappeared.

However we were talking, he could hear, he could think, he could see (and not only me - it was obvious other parties were involved, but I couldn’t see them. He could though). He even predicted certain things eg. “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”

I met the pastor nearly four years later, and about nine years after that, he apologised to me using the words, “I owe you an apology. You needed encouragement, and all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!”

Getting back to my father - in appearance I suppose you’d say he looked like a ghost ie. transparent, but clearly him.

So his mind and spirit continued on after his bodily death.

Frankly, going by the scream, I think he went to hell. It was just sheer terror. So in his case, he’ll probably remain in spiritual form.

But if someone goes to heaven, they’re given a new body, which will be quite different from the old earthly one which was subject to decay. It’s a gift, just like the body you’ve got now. You didn’t give that to yourself, did you?

 

[lmelahn]

What you are saying is correct particularly as to the fact that saints enjoy the beatic vision but from what I read I think you are confusing will and free will when saints intercede for us that does not require free will in the sense that saints do not have to choose whether they will intercede or no. A saint cannot say " hey I don’t like Hank so I am not interceding for him.". Saints already made that decision with their free will on earth. On earth they decided to take Jesus’ path and made a concious decision (not subconscious as free will is a function of the conciiys mind) to do good. Because they made that free decision on earth they are bound by it after death and they will enjoy the beatic vision. Saints in heaven cannot change their mind because the conscious mind that was attached to the body was lost. What happened here is that by being in God’s presence they really don’t need anything else but no they cannot say I am not praying for X or I like y better than X so I am helping only Y. On the same way they after death a soul that died unrepentant cannot change their mind and repent. A person who dies unrepentant does not have the faculty to repent after death because they cannot choose already between good and evil. That is why the church teaches that God does not condemn anyone to hell. The person goes to hell because that person choose to go to hell. God cannot forgive that person after death because that person lost its conscious mind and cannot repent. The lack of free will is what prevents the person from repenting after death because that person is bound by the decision made previously. I decided to he evil and never repent, I cannot die and think oh look indeed there is a God indeed I was wrong, sorry Jesus forgive me I was wrong. That process of thinking cannot happen anymore.

What you are saying is correct particularly as to the fact that saints enjoy the beatic vision but from what I read I think you are confusing will and free will when saints intercede for us that does not require free will in the sense that saints do not have to choose whether they will intercede or no. A saint cannot say " hey I don’t like Hank so I am not interceding for him.". Saints already made that decision with their free will on earth. On earth they decided to take Jesus’ path and made a concious decision (not subconscious as free will is a function of the conciiys mind) to do good. Because they made that free decision on earth they are bound by it after death and they will enjoy the beatic vision. Saints in heaven cannot change their mind because the conscious mind that was attached to the body was lost. What happened here is that by being in God’s presence they really don’t need anything else but no they cannot say I am not praying for X or I like y better than X so I am helping only Y. On the same way they after death a soul that died unrepentant cannot change their mind and repent. A person who dies unrepentant does not have the faculty to repent after death because they cannot choose already between good and evil. That is why the church teaches that God does not condemn anyone to hell. The person goes to hell because that person choose to go to hell. God cannot forgive that person after death because that person lost its conscious mind and cannot repent. The lack of free will is what prevents the person from repenting after death because that person is bound by the decision made previously. I decided to he evil and never repent, I cannot die and think oh look indeed there is a God indeed I was wrong, sorry Jesus forgive me I was wrong. That process of thinking cannot happen anymore.

Right, I think we are in agreement that we are incapable of changing our minds after death, as regards our final union with God.

However, I don’t think it follows that we will have no choice as regards the particular actions we take. The persons in Heaven (whether they be angels, men in the intermediate eschatology, or men with their resurrected bodies) still have the ability to choose this action or that, provided the actions in question are good ones.

The will is a faculty of the soul. It is free fundamentally because through it a creature can choose a good, or else refuse to choose it.

The so-called liberum arbitrium (rather unfortunately and confusingly translated in the English translation of the Summa theologiae as “free-will”) is our freedom to choose between good and evil. We have that characteristic now, because the only goods that we have direct knowledge of are finite. Once we are able to see God directly, our liberum arbitrium will pass away.

We will not, however, lose our wills or our fundamental freedom, or for that matter, our ability to think. (In fact, seeing God will greatly increase our freedom and intellective power.)

 

[marymary1975]

Right, I iare in agreement that we are incapable of changing our minds after death, as regards our final union with God.

However, I don’t think it follows that we will have no choice as regards the particular actions we take. The persons in Heaven (whether they be angels, men in the intermediate eschatology, or men with their resurrected bodies) still have the ability to choose this action or that, provided the actions in question are good ones.

The will is a faculty of the soul. It is free fundamentally because through it a creature can choose a good, or else refuse to choose it.

The so-called liberum arbitrium (rather unfortunately and confusingly translated in the English translation of the Summa theologiae as “free-will”) is our freedom to choose between good and evil. We have that characteristic now, because the only goods that we have direct knowledge of are finite. Once we are able to see God directly, our liberum arbitrium will pass away.

We will not, however, lose our wills or our fundamental freedom, or for that matter, our ability to think. (In fact, seeing God will greatly increase our freedom and intellective power.)

Definitely we are in agreement as to liberum arbitrum. But I don’t think souls in heaven are the ideal example because they are in the beatific vision of God and they don’t need anything else. They are living in complete happiness so all to them is full and joy. But what about souls in hell or purgatorium? We know for a fact that souls in purgatory are completely incapable of helping themselves. If they indeed retain their wills why they don’t have any ability to do anything. That is the point I don’t see. If a soul in purgatory still retains its intellect and its fundamental freedom then they should be able to choose and we know for a fact that they can’t. Souls in purgatory seem not only to have lost any freedom but seem to be completely reliant on prayers and actions of the alive world. If they would retain their intellect power they should be able to help themselves. Why they are unable to act if they still retain the ability to think?

Same with souls in hell. If they retain their ability to think after actually seeing what hell entails why they don’t want to leave? Also do souls in hell have freedom? What kind of freedom? The idea that a soul in hell does have freedom is quite troubling. How does a soul in hell exercises freedom?.

 

[lmelahn]

Definitely we are in agreement as to liberum arbitrum. But I don’t think souls in heaven are the ideal example because they are in the beatific vision of God and they don’t need anything else. They are living in complete happiness so all to them is full and joy.

I respectfully disagree that they are a bad example.

Naturally, I agree that the souls in Heaven are in a state of perfect joy, and that all their desires are fulfilled in the Beatific Vision. However, that puts them in a state of maximum freedom. It makes it easier for them to know and love (i.e., use their intellects and wills), not harder.

But what about souls in hell or purgatorium? We know for a fact that souls in purgatory are completely incapable of helping themselves.

I am not sure that the souls in Purgatory cannot pray for themselves. I don’t think the Church has ever taught that they cannot. She teaches that we have an obligation to intercede on behalf of the souls in Purgatory, and that it is an act of great mercy for us to do so, but that doesn’t mean that the persons there are incapable of thinking and loving.

But in any event, I agree that they are incapable of purifying themselves—because purification is the work of grace—but that does not mean that their intellects and wills have stopped functioning.

As for the souls in Hell (who will also be reunited with their bodies, albeit in a resurrection of perdition), they are incapable of charity (supernatural love), but that does not mean that their intellects and wills have disappeared.

If they indeed retain their wills why they don’t have any ability to do anything. That is the point I don’t see.

That they retain their wills is certain, because having a will (as well as in intellect) is a necessary consequence of being a spiritual being. Human beings share that property in common with the angels.

If a soul in purgatory still retains its intellect and its fundamental freedom then they should be able to choose and we know for a fact that they can’t. Souls in purgatory seem not only to have lost any freedom but seem to be completely reliant on prayers and actions of the alive world. If they would retain their intellect power they should be able to help themselves. Why they are unable to act if they still retain the ability to think?

As I said, I am not sure it is so certain that the souls in Purgatory cannot do anything. In fact, the opposite is almost certainly true. They cannot cleanse themselves, but that is a long way from saying they can’t do anything at all. We don’t know what that activity will consist in, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have any.

Don’t forget that if their intellects were to shut down, they would be essentially unconscious during their purification. That would seem to take away the point of it.

Same with souls in hell. If they retain their ability to think after actually seeing what hell entails why they don’t want to leave? Also do souls in hell have freedom? What kind of freedom? The idea that a soul in hell does have freedom is quite troubling. How does a soul in hell exercises freedom?.

Their inability to leave Hell stems from the fact that they have rejected the grace of God. We are incapable of loving God supernaturally without His grace, which endows us with the virtue of charity.

Their Hell consists precisely in realizing that God really does fulfills all their desires, but being unable to come to Him, because they don’t want to receive His grace. What gets in the way is pride: they do not wish to humble themselves, so as to repent.

Whereas the souls in Heaven experience God as a glorious light, they experience Him as a searing and consuming fire, so to speak. (The souls in Purgatory experience Him as a purifying fire.)

However, in none of those cases is the use of the intellect and will somehow impeded. The very fact that the souls experience anything proves that their intellects are functioning; the fact that they love (or hate) God proves that their wills are functioning.

How does a person in Hell exercise his freedom? It is hard to say precisely, because (thankfully) we have never experienced it directly. However, the persons in Hell will certainly be able to choose particular actions that suit their interests. They will be capable of self-interested or “selfish” actions, all of which require freedom of the will. What they will be unable to do is love God supernaturally, or love their neighbor for God’s sake—which, unfortunately, will be the cause of their eternal frustration.

 

[tonyrey]

Fertilizer for the lawn.

               Is that all?  No reply!

I suppose if you believe there is nothing but fertilizer it is better to write nothing! But then the question is what the source of fertility?

 

[StrawberryJam]

I suppose if you believe there is nothing but fertilizer it is better to write nothing! But then the question is what the source of fertility?

Hey tonyrey,

Don’t know if you garden or plant things. But, I will merely be lawn fertilizer.
We are all made of the same stuff basically. And when we return to the earth we give back to it. There will be many benefits to the soil when I am buried deeply into it.
We are all carbon based life forms.

By the way, I do hope that my relationships while alive and efforts while alive are good enough for me.