When The Pope Errs

[luciasclay]

Let me preface by saying I am not challenging the notion of papal infallibility nor am I challenging the notion of the infallibility of the Church. My question must be understood within the confines of both of those already being accepted.

The pope speaks authoritatively but not infallibly most of the time, infallibly on specific points at specific times. At the same time the pope is mortal and sins and must himself confess to another.

It is my understanding, though the details are not firm in my mind, that in history there has been at least one perhaps two popes who were later condemned. So I don’t think I’m asking purely a hypothetical here.

What happens if, God forbid, for some reason the pope were to leave the reservation and begin saying things that were not orthodox either authoritatively or even more tragically claiming to speak infallibly. Perhaps this would be due to a physical ailment or a spiritual one it doesn’t matter.

It is my understanding that there is a process, though not used as its never really necessary or discussed often wherein a pope could be, if it was necessary, be removed from the chair and a replacement named.

I would assume this would be via some council which would get into the sticky details of whether a council is authoritative w/o the pope accepting/agreeing with it.

Hopefully one can answer this for me, realizing the spirit in which it is asked.

 

[Nita]

I seem to recall hearing there is a procedure. However, cannot remember any reference as to where it is in Catholic law. So it could just have been speculation. Would really appreciate finding out if there is such a provision, and where it is recorded.

Personally, I know that Jesus has the power to uphold His promise that what the Pope, the successor of Peter, binds on earth is what will have been bound in heaven. Jesus is the one who made the promise. I do not doubt Him; and I trust that He will continue to uphold His word, as He has for the past 2000 years.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Here is a link to some commentary on canon 1404.

 

[Eucharisted]

Papal infalliblity, like sin, is a reality, not simply something that is believed to be real. That is why the Pope cannot error when he speaks infalliblity and why the soul is wounded (or killed, if the sin is mortal) when it sins. There are conditions for infallibility, just as there are conditions for injulgences, and these three infallible conditions are that the Pope must (1) speak to the whole Church (2) on matters of faith or morals (3) in light of his office. If he dose not speak to the Church, or on faith and morals, or in light of his office, he dose not speak infallibility - for example, if he speaks to the whole Church, but it is about a personal meditation, or if he speaks about morals but it is not to the whole Church, or if he speaks in light of his office but not on faith or morals or not to the whole Church, than he dose not speak infallibly.

Should the Pope commit the grave sins of heresy or schism, he falls out of Peter’s chair- that is, he loses his office.

 

[diggerdomer]

Let me preface by saying I am not challenging the notion of papal infallibility nor am I challenging the notion of the infallibility of the Church. My question must be understood within the confines of both of those already being accepted.

The pope speaks authoritatively but not infallibly most of the time, infallibly on specific points at specific times. At the same time the pope is mortal and sins and must himself confess to another.

It is my understanding, though the details are not firm in my mind, that in history there has been at least one perhaps two popes who were later condemned. So I don’t think I’m asking purely a hypothetical here.

What happens if, God forbid, for some reason the pope were to leave the reservation and begin saying things that were not orthodox either authoritatively or even more tragically claiming to speak infallibly. Perhaps this would be due to a physical ailment or a spiritual one it doesn’t matter.

It is my understanding that there is a process, though not used as its never really necessary or discussed often wherein a pope could be, if it was necessary, be removed from the chair and a replacement named.

I would assume this would be via some council which would get into the sticky details of whether a council is authoritative w/o the pope accepting/agreeing with it.

Hopefully one can answer this for me, realizing the spirit in which it is asked.

Good and intriguing question. There is no process for removing a Pope, though the Pope is free to resign.

 

[DavidFilmer]

It is my understanding, though the details are not firm in my mind, that in history there has been at least one perhaps two popes who were later condemned. So I don’t think I’m asking purely a hypothetical here.

You are correct that Popes have been posthumously condemned. Perhaps the most famous (and bizarre and shameful) example is the “Cadaver Synod” when the corpse of Pope Formosus was placed on trial by his successor (and political enemy), Stephen VI. Stephen accused Formosus of violations of Canon Law (not Doctrine) prior to his ascension to the Papacy.

Pope John XXII expressed a personal opinion for a time (though never officially as Pope) that the Saints do not enjoy the Beatific Vision until the final judgment. This viewpoint was later (rightfully) condemned as heresy (by John’s successor).

I’m sure that such examples could be multiplied.

What happens if, God forbid, for some reason the pope were to leave the reservation and begin saying things that were not orthodox either authoritatively or even more tragically claiming to speak infallibly. Perhaps this would be due to a physical ailment or a spiritual one it doesn’t matter.

What would happen is this: The Catholic Church would fall, and Satan would prevail.

It is my understanding that there is a process, though not used as its never really necessary or discussed often wherein a pope could be, if it was necessary, be removed from the chair and a replacement named.

Your understanding is mistaken. There is no process, in heaven or on earth, that can remove a Pope from his Chair against his will.

I would assume this would be via some council which would get into the sticky details of whether a council is authoritative w/o the pope accepting/agreeing with it.

No council has any authority whatsoever against any Pope, period. There are no “sticky details” to work out – there is absolutely and positively no authority whatsoever without the consent of the Pope.

 

[luciasclay]

You are correct that Popes have been posthumously condemned. Perhaps the most famous (and bizarre and shameful) example is the “Cadaver Synod” when the corpse of Pope Formosus was placed on trial by his successor (and political enemy), Stephen VI. Stephen accused Formosus of violations of Canon Law (not Doctrine) prior to his ascension to the Papacy.

How many other times has such a thing happened ? I think it was more than one but very few. I would appreciate a list of when and who.

 

[luciasclay]

Here is a link to some commentary on canon 1404.

Thanks!

 

[DavidFilmer]

How many other times has such a thing happened?

Only once in a fashion as outlandish as the Cadivar Synod. But many Popes have held (but never officially taught) opinions that were later rejected. Another example could be Limbo, which was believed and professed by many theologians, including Popes, but no Pope ever officially taught it. The idea of Limbo has fallen out of favor (though it has not been officially condemned - yet).

 

[ChadS]

I would suggest reading Pope Pius XII’s Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. The whole thing is a good read on the Dogma of the Assumption, but for our purposes read paragraphs 8-13 on how infallibility works practically and the interplay between the Pope, the Bishops, tradition and the lengths the various synods and Vatican groups went to determine the historicity, catholicity and apostolic tradition of the Assumption. It also shows how far and in depth their research went in making certain this belief was truly part of the deposit of faith.

While the Pope is infallibly protected by the Holy Spirit, we see that it is under certain circumstances and with certain requirements being met that infallibility is exercised.

ChadS