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JimG
Guest
It’s well known that the U.S. was complicit in the assassination of President Diem of Vietnam. A new book by Geoffrey Shaw sets the record straight. Here is an interview with the author.
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Path_Finder
Guest
I read about this in a book on JFK; I believe JFK wanted for the Diem Brothers to go into exile and at least, according to the book, the CIA allowed those staging a coup to shoot both of them and Kennedy did not want such severe action.
An interview to read closely. Thanks.
An interview to read closely. Thanks.
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edwest2
Guest
This is not the whole story. President Kennedy was shocked to hear that the Diem brothers had been murdered. The CIA, and others, including a rival group in Vietnam, were involved. At the time, it was claimed the two had committed suicide, but that idea was overruled by the fact that they were Catholics. Where they had been buried was not officially disclosed at the time. That a grave site has since been found is news to me.It’s well known that the U.S. was complicit in the assassination of President Diem of Vietnam. A new book by Geoffrey Shaw sets the record straight. Here is an interview with the author.
The US had been involved in Indochina/Vietnam since 1945.
Ed
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Dandelion_Wine
Guest
I heard an interview with Shaw on Relevant Radio. It was quite interesting. He was referencing his book The Lost Mandate of Heaven. It was quite the intriguing interview and topic. I filed this in the “books to read one day” category.
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JimG
Guest
From the interview:
"Most Americans do not realize just how much Lodge and the Harriman cabal had to push the Vietnamese generals to embark on a coup. I remember reading one report—I think it was from CIA operative Lucien Conein to Lodge—stating that getting the ARVN (South Vietnam army) generals to plot against Diem was like trying to push spaghetti.
The would-be Vietnamese coup officers were quite distinctly dragging their heels, and Kennedy’s men were trying to push them on. The only one who truly wanted to get Diem was General Duong Van (“Big”) Minh as he had been disgraced by Nhu many years earlier when Nhu caught him stealing a vast sum from the government. Nhu wanted Minh tried and sent to prison but Diem, always reluctant to be harsh, simply had Minh “kicked upstairs.”
"Most Americans do not realize just how much Lodge and the Harriman cabal had to push the Vietnamese generals to embark on a coup. I remember reading one report—I think it was from CIA operative Lucien Conein to Lodge—stating that getting the ARVN (South Vietnam army) generals to plot against Diem was like trying to push spaghetti.
The would-be Vietnamese coup officers were quite distinctly dragging their heels, and Kennedy’s men were trying to push them on. The only one who truly wanted to get Diem was General Duong Van (“Big”) Minh as he had been disgraced by Nhu many years earlier when Nhu caught him stealing a vast sum from the government. Nhu wanted Minh tried and sent to prison but Diem, always reluctant to be harsh, simply had Minh “kicked upstairs.”
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7_Sorrows
Guest
so the CIA was involved in the coup in Viet Nam as well as the failed coup (Bay of Pigs) in Cuba. Is it true JFK did not like the CIA or felt they were working behind his back.
J
JimG
Guest
I don’t have the sources at hand, so can’t be sure of this, but I do recall reading that the bay of pigs operation had already been planned by the CIA under the previous administration, and JFK allowed it to go forward with some qualms. It was a lesson which taught him not to necessarily trust the advice of agencies and advisors. During the Cuban missile crisis, the Joint Chiefs advised bombing the missile sites but couldn’t guarantee that they would all be destroyed. He rejected this advice in favor of a naval ‘quarantine’ (purposely using that word rather than “naval blockade” because it did not imply an act of war.)so the CIA was involved in the coup in Viet Nam as well as the failed coup (Bay of Pigs) in Cuba. Is it true JFK did not like the CIA or felt they were working behind his back.
That was a fortunate decision since, as it turned out, Russian commanders in Cuba had local control of and authority to launch the missiles on attack without permission from Moscow. And when the USSR decided to remove the missiles, it did not even bother to notify Fidel Castro, which infuriated him.
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Path_Finder
Guest
This above may be true but I’m not sure if the timeline is.I don’t have the sources at hand, so can’t be sure of this, but I do recall reading that the bay of pigs operation had already been planned by the CIA under the previous administration, and JFK allowed it to go forward with some qualms. It was a lesson which taught him not to necessarily trust the advice of agencies and advisors. During the Cuban missile crisis, the Joint Chiefs advised bombing the missile sites but couldn’t guarantee that they would all be destroyed. He rejected this advice in favor of a naval ‘quarantine’ (purposely using that word rather than “naval blockade” because it did not imply an act of war.)
That was a fortunate decision since, as it turned out, Russian commanders in Cuba had local control of and authority to launch the missiles on attack without permission from Moscow. And when the USSR decided to remove the missiles, it did not even bother to notify Fidel Castro, which infuriated him.
The Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile crisis (quarantine, attack missile sites) are two different events.
I believe the gripe by critics about the Bay of Pigs invasion is that the US did not assist the rebels with air power.
As for JFK and Diem, it does seem that “we” wanted him in exile.
This is all a matter for research.
Perhaps Vietnam was a Buddhist majority country and I’m not going to knock this President Diem, however, I do think, to be fair, one should research whether he was duly elected and so on.
Apparently, for some reason, they did not want in power; it’s not for me to judge, this is historic fact. I guess I will research it, I’m a bit of a JFK buff.
The coup was the culmination of nine years of autocratic and nepotistic family rule in South Vietnam. Discontent with the Diệm regime had been simmering below the surface, and exploded with mass Buddhist protests against long-standing religious discrimination after the government shooting of protesters who defied a ban on the flying of the Buddhist flag.
It’s amazing that the assassination of Diem was 20 days before the assassination of JFK.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem
The bio speaks a bit favorably of him.
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edwest2
Guest
The Bay of Pigs invasion was in 1961, the Russians established missile launching sites In Cuba in 1962. President Kennedy had to agree to do something about US Jupiter missiles deployed in Turkey to defuse the situation. Kennedy vowed to “smash the CIA into a thousand pieces” after he learned a few things about how they operate.This above may be true but I’m not sure if the timeline is.
The Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile crisis (quarantine, attack missile sites) are two different events.
I believe the gripe by critics about the Bay of Pigs invasion is that the US did not assist the rebels with air power.
As for JFK and Diem, it does seem that “we” wanted him in exile.
This is all a matter for research.
Perhaps Vietnam was a Buddhist majority country and I’m not going to knock this President Diem, however, I do think, to be fair, one should research whether he was duly elected and so on.
Apparently, for some reason, they did not want in power; it’s not for me to judge, this is historic fact. I guess I will research it, I’m a bit of a JFK buff.
It’s amazing that the assassination of Diem was 20 days before the assassination of JFK.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem
The bio speaks a bit favorably of him.
Ed
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Path_Finder
Guest
This is true.The Bay of Pigs invasion was in 1961, the Russians established missile launching sites In Cuba in 1962. President Kennedy had to agree to do something about US Jupiter missiles deployed in Turkey to defuse the situation. Kennedy vowed to “smash the CIA into a thousand pieces” after he learned a few things about how they operate.
Ed
I initially may have erred in mentioning the CIA, perhaps this “overthrow” was supported more by the military rather than CIA in this case.
The original article mentions the CIA only once and not in regards to involvement: catholicworldreport.com/Item/4511/when_the_us_abandoned_a_catholic_president.aspx
CIA is the usual suspect but in this case, they may not have done wrong and it is my fault for mentioning them in the first place.
That particular era is really fascinating, especially those Kennedy years. Perhaps decades from now, with the threat of ISIS in the world, people will look back at this era as being of great interest.
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Path_Finder
Guest
Again, echoing what I just posted, I’m not sure if the CIA is connected with what happened in this incident with Diem in Vietnam and probably my fault for carelessly mentioning that. The CIA probably has enough blame as it is, for me to mistakenly implicate them.so the CIA was involved in the coup in Viet Nam as well as the failed coup (Bay of Pigs) in Cuba. Is it true JFK did not like the CIA or felt they were working behind his back.
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Path_Finder
Guest
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edwest2
Guest
I’m skeptical. I may pick up a used copy down the road.
Ed
Ed
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Path_Finder
Guest
It looks like the book was released last November, so maybe by Summer or so, the price used will come down a bit or it may be at libraries.
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