When to Admonish the Sinner?

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jesusalright4me

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Hey all! So recently, a friend on Facebook shared a post by Fr. James Martin. Here it is: (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Some background: in terms of politics, this friend is quite liberal. He identifies as Christian I believe, though his social teaching opinions, especially those on things like same sex marriage, are not orthodox.

A part of me really wanted to point out that, put simply, Fr. Martin is only presenting half of the truth here, that the Church teaches homosexual acts to be a indeed sinful, and that this post, as well as a Catholic’s presence at an LGBT event, could truly be scandalous. I have typed this all out in my notes app, in a way worded charitably yet to the point. I have not posted it yet, though.

I wonder if I should. On one hand, I fear that those who see the original post could get the wrong impressions of Church teaching if I don’t comment. Another part of me says that, if I do comment, it should be in a PM. And yet, a third part of me says to hold off. Put simply, because we aren’t the closest of friends. Yet, I see potential opportunities to get closer to him in the future. I fear that if I say something over the Internet, he could take it quite offensively, destroying a relationship and thereby ruining any future chances at any sort of potential to present him with the fullness of the Catholic truth in the future.

So my question is, when do we know to admonish the sinner, or instruct the ignorant? Would this be a good time to? Pray for me as I discern this.
 
Build your in-person friendship with this person so that you will be comfortable PMimg them in the future. Or you could ask about Father Martin sounding as if you know little about him as a discussion starter in a PM. Once you have them talking you can take it from there.
 
jesusalright4me said:
A part of me really wanted to point out that, put simply, Fr. Martin is only presenting half of the truth here, that the Church teaches homosexual acts to be a indeed sinful, and that this post, as well as a Catholic’s presence at an LGBT event, could truly be scandalous.
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So called “pride parades” are not about “homosexual acts.” They originated after Stonewall in 1969 as a protest against the ways that LGBT people were being harassed, persecuted and oppressed by the police, by the government, and by others in society. And they are really more about freedom and liberation than about pride.
 
I’ve heard this before, but have you seen a pride parade? You might as well take your kid to a strip joint. They promote promiscuous sex. Ask any of the participants if they support chastity.

Father Martin sounds deceptive because he holds back key Catholic doctrine, like chastity, and that any sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is a sin.
 
I see. That is another thing I wondered about. Because my understanding is that many of these parades have half naked individuals glorifying the act. But that is probably just a misrepresentation.

Regardless, my biggest question is, freedom from what exactly? Because if it is this ideology that “we are free to ‘marry’ eachother now!”, well that is something Catholics should not support, because it is obvious these marriages are intertwined with the idea that same sex actions are fine and dandy. If we are talking about freedom from unjust discrimination in non-religious institutions, for example, well that is something I could get on board with more.
 
That is one thing I am thinking. Which is really hard for me to accept because, well, I know souls could be at stake, and it pains me to see others given watered-down Christianity!

On one hand I am reminded that Jesus often gained followers first before pointing out their flaws/instructing them in deeper matters. On the other hand, I am reminded how Jesus called out the Pharisees who most certainly were not buddies with him. also, on a side note, I am REALLY enjoying this new mobile CAF
 
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Personally, I’d rather let someone like Fr. Martin soften their hearts toward the church. That way they will be more receptive to the full truth when it is shared with them.

You have to meet people where they are and then walk with them to where you are going. You can’t win over hardened hearts by preaching at them about all the ways they are wrong and all the things they can’t do.

If I were you I’d engage your friend in a conversation about what it is that she likes about Fr. Martin’s tweet. I might ask how this differs from what she thinks the church teaches. I might talk to her about where her understanding about the church comes from. At that point, I would ask if I could tell her what the church actually teaches and why.

Fr. Martin is just trying to create an opening. It’s the beginning of a conversation not the end.
 
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Hmmm…so the question is when to practice a corporal work of mercy? The answer…ALWAYS
 
jesusalright4me said:
I see. That is another thing I wondered about. Because my understanding is that many of these parades have half naked individuals glorifying the act. But that is probably just a misrepresentation.

Regardless, my biggest question is, freedom from what exactly? Because if it is this ideology that “we are free to ‘marry’ eachother now!”, well that is something Catholics should not support, because it is obvious these marriages are intertwined with the idea that same sex actions are fine and dandy. If we are talking about freedom from unjust discrimination in non-religious institutions, for example, well that is something I could get on board with more.
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The last two pride events that I went to had no nudity. If there was anything wrong with some of the parades I’ve been to lately, it was that they have become far too commercialized. Among the sponsors of the last pride event I went to were beer companies, credit card companies, banks, and insurance companies.

And a lot of the people here in CAF are utterly fixated on the issue of same-sex marriage. During most of the 36 years since I came out, same-sex marriage wasn’t even possible and wasn’t something that I and many other LGBT people hardly even thought much about. We were probably more concerned about protections against discrimination in employment and housing, against police harassment, and many other issues.

And besides, no one is forced to go to these parades. If someone is worried that they might encounter some nudity, then they shouldn’t go to one. And if someone is worried that they might encounter a lot of drunken people and women flashing their breasts, they probably shouldn’t go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans either.
 
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I just don’t have them as friends. I am pretty sure there is nothing wrong with that.
 
jesusalright4me said:
So my question is, when do we know to admonish the sinner, or instruct the ignorant?
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I’ll be honest. I don’t like the way you’ve worded this question. You seemed quite level headed up to that point. Maybe your intentions are good but my impression is you are eager to punish the sinner and show your superior knowledge.
Not that I’m a fan of Father Martin by the way. I think he’s going too far with this LGBT business. Like he is trying to win a popularity contest?
 
The art of gentle persuasion many times surpasses harsh correction in such matters.
 
I like the point I see others making. For any hangups we may have regarding Father Martin, that post doesn’t necessarily go too far. Social media is tricky because we don’t know what other people’s feeds and friend lists are like. Your friend could have a lot of gay facebook friends or families of gay people who is the intended audience for this message that they have dignity and worth, they are loved by God, and they should be treated with respect unlike in other parts of the world where they are still being put to death. Your friend might be planting some deliberate seeds for future evangelization by starting with the two important topics of human dignity and God’s love.
 
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The only effective way to admonish a sinner is to live your own life in a way that is worthy of emulation. That speaks a lot louder than mere words, which are dirt cheap. Just follow Jesus’s commandments: Love God with all of your being, and love everyone as Jesus has loved you. If you are doing that, then you are a true light to the world.

Generally, work on your own faults before you focus on the faults of others. Otherwise, whoever you admonish will dismiss you as a common hypocrite.
 
Because Scripture tells us “By this will all men know you are my disciples, by how well you avoid gay people”…
 
Admonish only when you are certain of a sin; same sex attraction IS NOT a sin…Formication IS…if you are squirmish about admonishing hetro sexual adulterers or fornicators, and are not willing to do so, you stand the risk of being hypocritical if you hold someone with SSA to a higher standard.
 
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It’s the most flamboyant ones the make the news paper. These parades have been taken over by younger kids that might be a generation or even two younger than the Stonewall incident and did not live through the harassment. This however does not negate the point of the parades and, really, they are a logical result of what really boarded on persecution for centuries.
 
OsculeturMeOsculo said:
I just don’t have them as friends.
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Don’t be so sure. You may have many gay friends who have not revealed themselves. I myself am in the closet, and the few close friends to whom I have ‘come out’ expressed shock and surprise, saying they honestly never suspected I was same-sex attracted.
 
jesusalright4me said:
So my question is, when do we know to admonish the sinner, or instruct the ignorant? Would this be a good time to? Pray for me as I discern this.
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I wouldn’t say anything over Social Media. NOTHING.

Personally, I don’t care for Fr. Martin’s strategy or what he says. I have nothing against people who are SSA. However, I don’t believe it’s good for ANYONE to overly emphasize or define themselves by their sexual inclinations.

Matthew 5:16

“So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.”
 
Cruciferi said:
I don’t believe it’s good for ANYONE to overly emphasize or define themselves by their sexual inclinations.
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As a fifty-five year old man who has struggled with SSA all my life, may I say I agree with this one hundred percent. I believe that the definition of themselves by their sexual inclinations is one of the elementary errors some same-sex-attracted people make. If your self-image and identity are totally bound up with your sexual proclivities, you are putting an unhealthy emphasis on sexual relations and really elevating them into the most important aspect of your personality. Also, if your main focus is sex, this effectively prevents any growth or development of your ethical and moral sense. You will always remain at an adolescent, hormone-driven level of maturity, and you will never develop beyond that into a mature, thoughtful, considerate human being. I have a good friend in another state that is experiencing this exact problem. His self-image is so inextricably linked to his sex life, which is promiscuous, that even with seeing two different therapists every week, he is still at the ethical and moral development of a sixteen-year old boy. And he is six months my elder! I feel for him, but whenever I try to broach the subject, he cuts me off as if it is none of my business, which I suppose it isn’t. I try to pray for him as often as possible.
 
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