WHEN was Mary Redeemed?

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masterjedi747

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We say teach that Mary was conceived without Original Sin.
However, we also say that this was done in anticipation of Christ’s sacrifice, and that Mary was not redeemed except through Christ’s sacrifice, correct?
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So is it correct to say, strictly speaking, that Mary was not redeemed until Good Friday? (…and that until Christ re-opened the gates of heaven, she was simply in a perfect state of grace, but not technically yet redeemed?)

Or should we still say that she was redeemed at the moment of her conception, even though it was long before Christ’s sacrifice on Good Friday?

Or maybe it doesn’t really make much of a difference in the end (what with God coordinating everything outside of time, and all that fun stuff)… but I’m just curious.
 
To ask a slightly different version of the question (and I realize this is kind of absurd) – but incredibly hypothetically speaking, IF God had happened to decide that Mary should have died before Good Friday, what would have happened? Would it be correct to assume that she would have been, more or less like John the Baptist – that is, free from Original Sin, but still not yet able to enter Heaven until after Christ’s sacrifice? (I think?)
 
masterjedi747 said:
Or maybe it doesn’t really make much of a difference in the end (what with God coordinating everything outside of time, and all that fun stuff)… but I’m just curious.
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That’s the correct answer.

The power of Christ’s Sacrifice exists in eternity (as evinced by St. John’s vision in Revelation). That God could and would apply the grace to the new Ark of the Covenant at the moment of her conception is a no-brainer.

Does not Scripture itself say somewhere that the Lamb suffered since the foundation of the world for the sake of its salvation? How can this be if the Lamb suffered in real time only 2000 years ago (unless the earth is only 2000 years old 🤷)?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
That God could and would apply the grace to the new Ark of the Covenant at the moment of her conception is a no-brainer.
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Sure…
mardukm said:
The power of Christ’s Sacrifice exists in eternity (as evinced by St. John’s vision in Revelation).
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But we do teach that the souls of all those who died before Christ had to wait until He"reopened the gates of Heaven" with His sacrifice before they could actually enter, right?

And we say that John the Baptist was cleansed from original sin while he was still in the womb (but was martyred and yet presumably still couldn’t enter Heaven until after Christ’s sacrifice)… so would it be terribly wrong to say that Mary also couldn’t have entered into Heaven until Christ’s sacrifice was complete? (…under this interpretation, I guess, Mary would have been cleansed from Original Sin at her conception, in anticipation of Christ’s sacrifice, but not strictly speaking redeemed until after Good Friday, just like everyone else?)

Just want to make sure I’m not falling into heresy here, or anything. :o
 
masterjedi747 said:
Sure…

Mary would have been cleansed from Original Sin at her conception, in anticipation of Christ’s sacrifice, but not strictly speaking redeemed until after Good Friday, just like everyone else?)
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“Cleansed” doesn’t seem quite correct. “Preserved” seems more correct.

Anyone?
 
mark_a said:
“Cleansed” doesn’t seem quite correct. “Preserved” seems more correct.

Anyone?
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I am more inclined to understand it as “cleansed” (though “preserved” is certainly also appropriate). The reason is because Mary’s generation was natural. Naturally, her physical conception would have acquired the effects of original sin. The spiritual conception (which was immaculate), when joined to the physical conception, is what accomplished the cleansing. Of course, the spiritual and physical conceptions occur simulataneously.

Does that make sense?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
I am more inclined to understand it as “cleansed” (though “preserved” is certainly also appropriate). The reason is because Mary’s generation was natural. Naturally, her physical conception would have acquired the effects of original sin. The spiritual conception (which was immaculate), when joined to the physical conception, is what accomplished the cleansing. Of course, the spiritual and physical conceptions occur simulataneously.

Does that make sense?

Blessings,
Marduk
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No, How can you say “cleansed” when her soul wasn’t soiled by Original to begin with. She was in fact preserved from the stain of Original Sin and it’s effects. satan had no access what-so-ever to her.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
No, How can you say “cleansed” when her soul wasn’t soiled by Original to begin with. She was in fact preserved from the stain of Original Sin and it’s effects. satan had no access what-so-ever to her.
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I’m not talking about her soul. I’m talking about the physical conception being cleansed by the immaculate spiritual conception.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
masterjedi747 said:
But we do teach that the souls of all those who died before Christ had to wait until He"reopened the gates of Heaven" with His sacrifice before they could actually enter, right?

And we say that John the Baptist was cleansed from original sin while he was still in the womb (but was martyred and yet presumably still couldn’t enter Heaven until after Christ’s sacrifice)… so would it be terribly wrong to say that Mary also couldn’t have entered into Heaven until Christ’s sacrifice was complete? (…under this interpretation, I guess, Mary would have been cleansed from Original Sin at her conception, in anticipation of Christ’s sacrifice, but not strictly speaking redeemed until after Good Friday, just like everyone else?)

Just want to make sure I’m not falling into heresy here, or anything. :o
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IMO, I think your scenario is proper. In any case, there is no question of you falling into heresy even if it was wrong. The Church has not sought to define or even teach anything on such a cryptic circumstance as you have proposed. 🙂 If your meanderings lead you to disbelieve a sure teaching of the Church de fide … well, I don’t think you’ve crossed that bridge yet.😃

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
I’m not talking about her soul. I’m talking about the physical conception being cleansed by the immaculate spiritual conception.

Blessings,
Marduk
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Um, “immaculate spiritual conception”? This isn’t a term the Church uses. I believe you refering to the Infusion of her Immaculate soul, preserved for the stain of Original Sin, by a single act of God, at the moment of her physical conception, which took place in a normal human biological manner.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Um, “immaculate spiritual conception”? This isn’t a term the Church uses. I believe you refering to the Infusion of her Immaculate soul, preserved for the stain of Original Sin, by a single act of God, at the moment of her physical conception, which took place in a normal human biological manner.
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Isn’t that what I said?😃
 
mark_a said:
“Cleansed” doesn’t seem quite correct. “Preserved” seems more correct.

Anyone?
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Yes, she was saved from the curse of being born with original sin, which gives a corrupt nature. Sort of like a vine that grows crooked. Her nature was made to grow “straight”.

She was not cleansed from her own personal sin.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Yes, she was saved from the curse of being born with original sin, which gives a corrupt nature. Sort of like a vine that grows crooked. Her nature was made to grow “straight”.

She was not cleansed from her own personal sin.
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She was preserved from being conceived with Original Sin.
 
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