When Was Satan Cast Down from Heaven?

[PAboy57]

I think the great battle in heaven had to happen before the creation of man.

lucifer was the greatest of angels and i believe he became upset about man’s creation.

his pride made him and 1/3 of all angels rebel against God. Michael took on the fight and won. lucifer and his fallen angels were banished to earth.

God completed creation and the serpent tempted and made man fall.

we know the end. there is no salvation for lucifer and the 1/3.

 

[centurionguard]

Was it Dante who said, “Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven”?

If Pride can do this to the greatest angel, just think what it can do to you and me.

If Pride can do this to the greatest angel, just think what it can do to you and me.

What you speak of here I do not ignore lightly or anytime. Pride effects all sinful acts.
Something to be conscious of at all times because the father of lies is so very cunning in persuasion even to the degree making one think of boasting about their good works of charity etc. All human good acts of charity in good faith are Gods doing.

Humility is the key to all Gods graces and mysteries. Even the personal practice of Humility can’t be boasted.

 

[fbl9]

]What you speak of here I do not ignore lightly or anytime. Pride effects all sinful acts.
Something to be conscious of at all times because the father of lies is so very cunning in persuasion even to the degree making one think of boasting about their good works of charity etc. All human good acts of charity in good faith are Gods doing.

Upon reflecting my past it does seem to me that yes pride is at the root of all sins.But on first galnce on can not see that. Pride has a way of sneeking into one’s life unknownly,if one is aware of of pride i say stomp it out all costs.

Humility is the key to all Gods graces and mysteries. Even the personal practice of Humility can’t be boasted

.You mean i can’t say it’s hard to proud when you are as humble as i am?

 

[NotWorthy]

What you speak of here I do not ignore lightly or anytime. Pride effects all sinful acts.
Something to be conscious of at all times because the father of lies is so very cunning in persuasion even to the degree making one think of boasting about their good works of charity etc. All human good acts of charity in good faith are Gods doing.

Humility is the key to all Gods graces and mysteries. Even the personal practice of Humility can’t be boasted.

I have a hard time differentiating between Pride (or Arrogance) and Self Confidence. Sometimes there is a fine line between the two (or is it three?).

Our local priest made the comment one time that all the canonized saints shared a common trait - humility. Although I have a hard time associating humility with St. Jerome, I’ll still accept it as the truth!

But your point bears repeating - Humility is the key to all Gods graces and mysteries.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think the great battle in heaven had to happen before the creation of man.

lucifer was the greatest of angels and i believe he became upset about man’s creation.

his pride made him and 1/3 of all angels rebel against God. Michael took on the fight and won. lucifer and his fallen angels were banished to earth.

God completed creation and the serpent tempted and made man fall.

we know the end. there is no salvation for lucifer and the 1/3.

If I remember correctly, it was posited that all the Saints were shown Jesus Christ (in his Fully God, Fully Man state, in other words, after the Incarnation) before Creation occurred and were told that they were to serve Him. That’s when Satan and his minions rebelled, for they refused to serve a Man, even if He was God.

 

[fbl9]

I thought this story was considered a parable, but after looking at the Navarre, I saw where I erred.

"In this book, Satan does not yet mean ‘The Devil’, the fallen angel who tempts man to sin. He is the prosecutor who denounces man to God for his sins. (cf. Zech. 3.1).

The thing is Job has not committed a sin. How can the adversary denounce Job for what he has not done?
To me it seems clear that the adversary is the one that tempts because of his actions against Job.

 

[NotWorthy]

The thing is Job has not committed a sin. How can the adversary denounce Job for what he has not done?
To me it seems clear that the adversary is the one that tempts because of his actions against Job.

That’s exactly the thing! The adversary condemns all mankind. He thinks the only reason that Job continuously praises God is that Job has been abundantly blessed by God. But God knows Job much better than Satan does.

6 *** One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, Satan also came among them. 7 ****** And the LORD said to Satan, “Whence do you come?” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “From roaming the earth and patrolling it.”****** 8 ****** And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job, and that there is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil?”****** 9 ****** But Satan answered the LORD and said, “Is it for nothing that Job is God-fearing?****** 10 ****** Have you not surrounded him and his family and all that he has with your protection? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock are spread over the land.****** 11 ****** But now put forth your hand and touch anything that he has, and surely he will blaspheme you to your face.”*** Job 1:6-11

 

[Regardless]

The Book of Job1:6-12 finishes with these words “So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord”
Does this mean Satan is still able to be in the presence of the Lord? The gate to heaven is not shut to Satan now?

Very good! You make a superb point.
Most of these posts don’t mention what the Bible says, but you clearly show Satan still had access to heaven in Job’s day! And Job 1:6 shows he walked straight in among the angels and challenged Jehovah.

Now add to that the scripture which talks of Satan being cast to the earth: Rev 12:7-9. “so down the great dragon was hurled… the one called Devil and Satan… hurled down to the earth…” when was this? Obviously (from your research) after Job’s day.
Revelation gives the answer: Rev. 1:10: “By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day…”
John was seeing the future. So Satan had not yet been cast down in John’s day either.

God’s spirit showed John events in “the Lords day”. The time that Jesus apostles (including John) asked about in Matt 24:3. and Jesus answered with the sign to look out for. (vs.5-14) including great wars, famines, earthquakes and the world wide preaching work about God’s Kingdom.
If those event are happening now, that shows us the time period Satan was cast down during. And note what else Revelation says: Rev 12:12. “Woe for the earth and the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

 

[centurionguard]

I have a hard time differentiating between Pride (or Arrogance) and Self Confidence. Sometimes there is a fine line between the two (or is it three?).

Our local priest made the comment one time that all the canonized saints shared a common trait - humility. Although I have a hard time associating humility with St. Jerome, I’ll still accept it as the truth!

But your point bears repeating - Humility is the key to all Gods graces and mysteries.

Actually; that point didn’t come from my little thinking . I owe it to Gods greatest creature of Humility…The Immaculate Blessed Virgin Mary and numerous inspired Saints with three especially amongst many of my favorites Saint John of the Cross, Saint Francis of Assisi, and last but not least Saint Thomas A Kempis on the Imitation of Christ.

Peace
Chris

 

[ralozano]

Was it Dante who said, “Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven”?

If Pride can do this to the greatest angel, just think what it can do to you and me.

 

[ralozano]

Although Dante is not part of the Bible, one has to admit much of what he wrote chills to the bone. If the bible would have described hell, it is hard to believe it would be any different than what Dante described.
The devel the great deicever cries much in hell when he thinks of what he gave up in Heaven.( Mary of Agerta," The city of God") Much regrets!!! The statement about It’s better to rule in hell than obey in Heaven is another lie. He knows that he made a ghastly mistake that he would undo if it were possible. I hope that all of us here on earth will not make the same mistake and follow satan into his demise.
robert

 

[NotWorthy]

The devel the great deicever cries much in hell when he thinks of what he gave up in Heaven.( Mary of Agerta," The city of God") Much regrets!!! The statement about It’s better to rule in hell than obey in Heaven is another lie. He knows that he made a ghastly mistake that he would undo if it were possible. I hope that all of us here on earth will not make the same mistake and follow satan into his demise.
robert

You know, I can almost agree with you on this. I would also think the one thing that prevents him from admitting that is his mighty arrogance. He can’t humble himself enough to admit he was wrong.

But St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that the devil fully knew the consequences of his actions, as well as all the other devils, so he is incapable of regretting his decision to rebel.

 

[rcjones]

Now for something completely different…

IF the garden was in timeless eternity, AND time was a part of the fall, then Satan was cast out at the same time Adam was.

 

[NotWorthy]

Now for something completely different…

IF the garden was in timeless eternity, AND time was a part of the fall, then Satan was cast out at the same time Adam was.

But the garden wasn’t created in timeless eternity, right?

 

[rcjones]

But the garden wasn’t created in timeless eternity, right?

Well… The Catholic church doesn’t require that one believes in literal six days. So why not?

Timelessness does not necessarily negate sequencing, and there was no sun and earth by which to measure the first days.

So the universe was formed and completed in an instant as Gen 1.1 says. The rest of Chapter 1 tells what happened in that instant.

Just something to consider.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Was it Dante who said, “Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven”?

Milton, actually.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well… The Catholic church doesn’t require that one believes in literal six days. So why not?

Timelessness does not necessarily negate sequencing, and there was no sun and earth by which to measure the first days.

So the universe was formed and completed in an instant as Gen 1.1 says. The rest of Chapter 1 tells what happened in that instant.

Just something to consider.

No, I don’t think the rest of Chapter 1 tells what happened in that instant. But, even so, by your own reckoning, if the Garden of Eden was created outside of time, so was everything else.

So, back to your statement, there was no sun and earth by which to measure the first days, you are right. But the sun and earth were created prior to the plants and animals… things which make up the Garden. Hence, the Garden would have been created within time.

 

[rcjones]

No, I don’t think the rest of Chapter 1 tells what happened in that instant. But, even so, by your own reckoning, if the Garden of Eden was created outside of time, so was everything else.

Bingo. That’s why it’s called ‘completely different’. The hypothesis, which is all that it is, isn’t negated by a mere assertion. Nor by presuming that if there is a sun and earth that time exists. Time is not a feature of matter. Nor is it a feature of motion. Quantum motion does not require time. Twenty years ago the laws of physics were being rewritten by a physicist at Berekely without the time parameter.

In the sensus plenior, east is eternity and west is ‘filthy time’ which is what suggested the hypothesis to me. Everything decays because of time. Newtons second law. Seems to be consistent with the hypothesis.

So if time was the result of the fall, then Adam named the animals in a timeless eternity as well. Things only started to decay once they left the timelessness. It is fitting that when we return to the garden of Revelation, that we are once again in a timeless eternity.

By the way, the physical evidence also supports it. We have geology that appears to have happened over very long periods of time and radiation halos which have to have happened instantly in the same rock. One way for this to have happened is if they both occurred outside of time.

 

[NotWorthy]

Bingo. That’s why it’s called ‘completely different’. The hypothesis, which is all that it is, isn’t negated by a mere assertion. Nor by presuming that if there is a sun and earth that time exists. Time is not a feature of matter. Nor is it a feature of motion. Quantum motion does not require time. Twenty years ago the laws of physics were being rewritten by a physicist at Berekely without the time parameter.

Ow! Now, my head is hurting!

In the sensus plenior, east is eternity and west is ‘filthy time’ which is what suggested the hypothesis to me. Everything decays because of time. Newtons second law. Seems to be consistent with the hypothesis.

I always had heard that “east” is man traveling away from God, and then “west” is man returning back to God. At least, I’ve always heard this in regards to Genesis… I’m not sure if it was the rest of Scripture.

So if time was the result of the fall, then Adam named the animals in a timeless eternity as well. Things only started to decay once they left the timelessness. It is fitting that when we return to the garden of Revelation, that we are once again in a timeless eternity.

That would imply that the animals and plants suffered death because of the Fall. I’ve never considered that.

By the way, the physical evidence also supports it. We have geology that appears to have happened over very long periods of time and radiation halos which have to have happened instantly in the same rock. One way for this to have happened is if they both occurred outside of time.

OK, my headache is back again…