"When we eat this 'bread'"?

[JKirkLVNV]

Dr. Bombay:

but interior contemplation is just as important, **something that is too often absent from the Pauline Mass./**QUOTE]

Not in my experience. Now, there have been some glaring exceptions, but those have been few and far between…again, in my experience.

As for the Mass in Swahili, that’s a visit, not a lifetime. They should have Swahili and I rejoice that I can have English. I still hope that you folks get your “wider application,” though. Just leave me to my “inferior,” sub par, verging-on-detrimental-to-the-faith mass.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

JKirkLVNV:

Dr. Bombay:

but interior contemplation is just as important, something that is too often absent from the Pauline Mass./

QUOTE]

Not in my experience. Now, there have been some glaring exceptions, but those have been few and far between…again, in my experience.

As for the Mass in Swahili, that’s a visit, not a lifetime. They should have Swahili and I rejoice that I can have English. I still hope that you folks get your “wider application,” though. Just leave me to my “inferior,” sub par, verging-on-detrimental-to-the-faith mass. Now, really. Who’s trying to take away your precious English Mass anyway? Didn’t good Cardinal Arinze already guarantee that it would be with us per omnia sæcula sæculorum?

 

[paramedicgirl]

JKirkLVNV:

On the contrary, I don’t know Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence. Do you? Have you actually spoken with any who don’t? How many? Some must exist, as we’ve been constantly told they do, but I don’t know any and I’ve lived in a number of states. If, however, the belief is as widespread as is alledged, I don’t think that can be laid at the feet of the Pauline Mass, but rather with poor catechisis. Now I do know that that exists.

You are right about the poor catechesis being the reason for the lack of belief in the Real Presence. Most of the kids I teach Cathechism to don’t even come to church on a regular basis. The only religious training they get is the 1 1/2 hours a week that I provide. You’ve just given me an idea for tomorrow’s class. I’m going to find out how many of them know what the Real Presence is.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

On the contrary, I don’t know Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence. Do you? Have you actually spoken with any who don’t? How many? Some must exist, as we’ve been constantly told they do, but I don’t know any and I’ve lived in a number of states. If, however, the belief is as widespread as is alledged, I don’t think that can be laid at the feet of the Pauline Mass, but rather with poor catechisis. Now I do know that that exists.

I actually have met quite a few Kirk. I am involved with an adult faith formation group. We had a meeting last year I think it was and I posed that question. Fully half said they did not believe in the real presence. Of the other half, most believed in the real presence but only as far as them receiving Holy Comminion. They did not believe that the presence continued after Mass. Only three or four actually knew and believed.

I think we were successful with most of the people in instructing them, although we did have a couple who said they just could not accept the idea. The sad thing is they were both life long Catholics. So very very sad.

 

[paramedicgirl]

palmas85:

I actually have met quite a few Kirk. I am involved with an adult faith formation group. We had a meeting last year I think it was and I posed that question. Fully half said they did not believe in the real presence. Of the other half, most believed in the real presence but only as far as them receiving Holy Comminion. They did not believe that the presence continued after Mass. Only three or four actually knew and believed.

I think we were successful with most of the people in instructing them, although we did have a couple who said they just could not accept the idea. The sad thing is they were both life long Catholics. So very very sad.

That really begs the question - why do they call themselves Catholics? When the people who have received poor instruction are taught, and then they believe, that is one thing. When the people who have been taught and still don’t believe, that is heresy. They may as well join a Protestant denomination.

 

[palmas85]

paramedicgirl:

That really begs the question - why do they call themselves Catholics? When the people who have received poor instruction are taught, and then they believe, that is one thing. When the people who have been taught and still don’t believe, that is heresy. They may as well join a Protestant denomination.

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, not only on this forum but in the Church at large, it seems that it is only necessary to proclaim yourself Catholic. You can believe anything that you want, practice anything you want, pick choose and refuse doctrine, and basically sculpt a faith that is both practical and comfortable to you. If you don’t agree with something, discard it, it’s all right, God will understand that you have to “FIND” your own path. And remember, there are many paths of which Catholicism is just one.

Maybe it all ties in with the theory that all someone really has to be is connected to the Church in some way to gain salvation… Could be that just by saying you’re Catholic is enough in some peoples minds.

 

[paramedicgirl]

palmas85:

Unfortunately, from what I have seen, not only on this forum but in the Church at large, it seems that it is only necessary to proclaim yourself Catholic. You can believe anything that you want, practice anything you want, pick choose and refuse doctrine, and basically sculpt a faith that is both practical and comfortable to you. If you don’t agree with something, discard it, it’s all right, God will understand that you have to “FIND” your own path. And remember, there are many paths of which Catholicism is just one.

Maybe it all ties in with the theory that all someone really has to be is connected to the Church in some way to gain salvation… Could be that just by saying you’re Catholic is enough in some peoples minds.

palmas, you are describing the Luther/Calvin school of theology! I understand your frustration, though. There are way too many Cafeteria Catholics in today’s world. Unfortunately, that includes some priests. The new springtime we hear so much about will only happen when the Pope cleans house.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

palmas85:

I actually have met quite a few Kirk. I am involved with an adult faith formation group. We had a meeting last year I think it was and I posed that question. Fully half said they did not believe in the real presence. Of the other half, most believed in the real presence but only as far as them receiving Holy Comminion. They did not believe that the presence continued after Mass. Only three or four actually knew and believed.

I think we were successful with most of the people in instructing them, although we did have a couple who said they just could not accept the idea. The sad thing is they were both life long Catholics. So very very sad.

See, I haven’t. I’ve met some hum dingers, for example, people who reject the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Mother for example. These are people of my aquaintance, actually, that I’ve known for years. BUT…they still believe in the Real Presence. I don’t get it, since the former dogma would really require nothing more than continence on the part of the Blessed Mother and Saint Joseph, but the latter requires a persistent, on-going, full-blown miracle. The only conclusion that I can come to is that they were well-catechised about the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Sacrament and less so about the perpetual virginity of the Bless Mother. Which leads me back to my original premise: bad catechesis makes for bad Catholics.

 

[palmas85]

JKirkLVNV:

See, I haven’t. I’ve met some hum dingers, for example, people who reject the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Mother for example. These are people of my aquaintance, actually, that I’ve known for years. BUT…they still believe in the Real Presence. I don’t get it, since the former dogma would really require nothing more than continence on the part of the Blessed Mother and Saint Joseph, but the latter requires a persistent, on-going, full-blown miracle. The only conclusion that I can come to is that they were well-catechised about the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Sacrament and less so about the perpetual virginity of the Bless Mother. Which leads me back to my original premise: bad catechesis makes for bad Catholics.

I think you are right in that regard Kirk, poor catechisis is definitely a problem. I believe one of the big things is that in too many parishes the focus in the CCD and the RCIA programs is more on faith formation, conscience development and social justice than it is on the faith itself. As an example, my co worker whose RCIA experience I’ve written about on several occasions was told last week that two of the greatest Catholic leaders of the 20th century were Leonardo Boff and Cesar Chavez… They were told that they as potential Catholics needed to emulate these two and imitate their ideals and faith.

I would have to think that when these two men are identified as two of the greatest Catholic leaders, is Boff even still Catholic?, that there is a definite social agenda at work at the expense of the faith at large.

 

[crazyage3]

JKirkLVNV:

On the contrary, I don’t know Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence. Do you? Have you actually spoken with any who don’t? How many? Some must exist, as we’ve been constantly told they do, but I don’t know any and I’ve lived in a number of states. If, however, the belief is as widespread as is alledged, I don’t think that can be laid at the feet of the Pauline Mass, but rather with poor catechisis. Now I do know that that exists.

Lots of Catholics do not believe in transubstantuation. This believe it to be a symbol of His body and blood. Many Many! I know so many. Especially when they refer to Him as wine and bread.