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Mickey
Guest
Excellent E.E.N.S!
And don’t forget about the widow and the unjust judge.
And don’t forget about the widow and the unjust judge.
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mercygate
Guest
You presume that repetition precludes “heartfelt” devotion.
There is a contemplative dimension to the repetition that anchors the mind and heart on the subject of the meditation in the rosary.
It is probably not possible to make this clear to someone who has never tried it, but as with the Jesus prayer, the repetition carries the senses in the direction of the words and draws the heart into the prayer and into the presence of God. At times when praying the rosary, one trails off into a silent interior recollection of the mystery under consideration . . . I’m not sure if contemplative prayer is something non-Catholics can relate to but it’s something like just BEING there, with God, under that particular mystery, e.g., in the rosary we meditate on the events in Jesus’ life – his incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, glorification . . . We pray the gospel. Sometimes it seems quite superficial. At other times it is vivid enough to taste.
C
CorneliusBottom
Guest
I certainly didn’t intend to imply that. I just asked the question: Why do you repeat? Whether it’s heart-felt or not, if it is intended to make your prayer more commendable to God, then it is sinful to do so. If, on the other hand, it is not heart-felt, then it doesn’t matter what the reason-- it is sinful because it is empty. So, then, what is the reason for repetitive prayer?
I realize this. I have never questioned whether repetition did this. Perhaps what you don’t realize is that using the Rosary in non-repetitive prayer might offer the same thing. Further, there are other tools at the disposal of the Christian which are even more helpful. For example, praying through the Word of God is a most excellent (and, I might add, more appropriate) method of anchoring one’s prayer.
That’s an assumption which fails in two ways: First, you assume that experiential knowledge is the only kind which is sufficient to understand the experience and second, you assume that I have never been a practitioner of contemplative prayer. I was, until a year ago, an advocate of the Jesus Prayer and the Anglican Rosary. In fact, I used to make Anglican Rosaries from twine for friends. I do have experiential knowledge of these things.
Truthfully, I don’t want to get sidetracked from the other thread that I joined to participate in, so I’m going to keep this short. This is not in disdain for the conversation (it’s one that deserves better), but so that I can manage my time well. We ought to ask whether our practices are biblical or not, rather than whether they make us feel good, connected to God, or focused. If the problem is a lack of focus, the answer is not necessarily repetition just as it is not necessarily Nodoze. So, once again, I ask that you examine your reasons for your practices and that you evaluate them against what the Scripture says.
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blackfish152
Guest
Hi, I have been praying the rosary, with meditations, images and brief scripture verses and catechism quotes.
I want to know what people who have a bit more experienced in praying the rosary, think of the mediatations.
Many say the meditations are key, and the prayer is at risk of becoming vain reps. without the meditation-(i think one on the marian devoted popes suggested this). I love the meditation, but I would love someone to tell me how the actual hail mary sequence helps them in contemplating the mysteries.
do you say the prayer subconsciously? How can you focus on saying the hail mary and contemplating the mystery at the same time?
I am concerned about this, coz I became very paronoid that my last rosary was heaping up empty phrases, as I could not get my mind to contemplate the mysteries.
But one thing, I must say, is that the rosary for me at certain silent moments almost is like a life line that has dropped from mary in heaven and she is pouring out her love for you, as you talk to her. So it is hard to ever grow tired of that I can tell you, and it certainly is not vain.
m.
I want to know what people who have a bit more experienced in praying the rosary, think of the mediatations.
Many say the meditations are key, and the prayer is at risk of becoming vain reps. without the meditation-(i think one on the marian devoted popes suggested this). I love the meditation, but I would love someone to tell me how the actual hail mary sequence helps them in contemplating the mysteries.
do you say the prayer subconsciously? How can you focus on saying the hail mary and contemplating the mystery at the same time?
I am concerned about this, coz I became very paronoid that my last rosary was heaping up empty phrases, as I could not get my mind to contemplate the mysteries.
But one thing, I must say, is that the rosary for me at certain silent moments almost is like a life line that has dropped from mary in heaven and she is pouring out her love for you, as you talk to her. So it is hard to ever grow tired of that I can tell you, and it certainly is not vain.
m.
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Eden
Guest
CorneliusBottom - I think you missed E.E.N.S’ biblical passages so I’m reposting them:
Matt. 6:7 - Jesus teaches, “do not heap up empty phrases” in prayer. Protestants use this verse to criticize various Catholic forms of prayer which repeat phrases, such as litanies and the Rosary. But Jesus’ focus in this instruction is on the "vain", and not on the "repetition."
Matt. 26:44 - for example, Jesus prayed a third time in the garden of Gethsemane, saying the exact same words again. It is not the repetition that is the issue. It’s the vanity. God looks into our heart, not solely at our words.
Luke 18:13 - the tax collector kept beating his breast and praying “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” ***This repetitive prayer was pleasing to God because it was offered with a sincere and repentant heart. ***
Acts 10:2,4 - Cornelius prayed constantly to the Lord and his prayers ascended as a memorial before God.
Rom. 1:9 - Paul says that he always mentions the Romans in his prayers without ceasing.
Rom. 12:12 - Paul commands us to be constant in prayer. God looks at what is in our heart, not necessarily how we choose our words.
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul commands us to pray constantly. Good repetition is different than vain repetition.
Rev. 4:8 - the angels pray day and night without cessation the same words “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.”*** This is repetitious prayer that is pleasing to God. ***
Psalm 136 - in this Psalm, the phrase “For His steadfast love endures forever” is more repetitious than any Catholic prayer, and it is God’s divine Word. Dan. 3:35-66 - the phrase “Bless the Lord” is similarly offered repeatedly, and mirrors Catholic litanies.
Is reciting repetitive prayer biblical? Definitely. Is vain prayer biblical? Absolutely not.
M
mercygate
Guest
Cornelius, what you wrote was, "Is God somehow pleased by the repetition of prayers that are not heart-felt? No." I took this to mean that you equated repetition of prayers with prayer that is not heartfelt. My error. However, I take exception to your statment that ANY prayer, even repetitive prayer, could possibly be “sinful.” Jesus certainly does not say that repetition is sinful. Jesus says, “And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.”
You can call the words of Scripture that constitute most of the Hail Mary “empty phrases,” if you like. I’m not willing to do that.
I do that all the time when reciting the 58 psalm verses which begin my morning prayer.
A great deal of what we call “prayer” has a personal, subjective component. There is no single “right” “technique.” For you, “praying through the Word of God” might be “more helpful” or “more appropriate” but, for someone whose responsibilities exact a high physical and mental toll – say a young mother – “appropriate” might be praying whatever simple rote prayers she can manage with all the love she can put into them at that moment. Or for a sick person, who is incapable of imaginative, discursive prayer, repeating the Lord’s Prayer or just the words, “Jesus, I love you,” likely gains more graces for the world than all the elegant cognitive prayer of the most learned and devoted theologians put together. By the way, as one who spends about an hour each day in lectio divina, I am blessed to appreciate the grace of “praying through the Word of God.”
I do not assume that you have not been a practitioner of contemplative prayer. I do know that many people who object to the rosary have no idea at all what a Catholic means when he speaks of contemplation, and in fact, there are enough definitions/aspects/styles of “contemplative” prayer that even we have to specify which form of it we are talking about.
Anglican “rosary”? Ah. I have seen them. When I was an Anglican, we prayed **the **rosary.
Biblical? The rosary “prays the Gospel.” Others have addressed the biblical aspect of repetition. Psalm 136, I suppose is un-biblical?
You are aware, of course, that if a Catholic is disinclined to pray the rosary, he is by no means obliged to pray it. It is an aid to prayer. It is a devotional practice. It has great value for many. For others it is less useful. Scripture says to “pray always.” Prayer is not a one-size-fits-all operation.
Evaluate my practices? O come now. I am not twenty, nor am I thoughtless, inexperienced, mindless in my practice, or ignorant of Scripture.
W
Wolseley
Guest
The Rosary is a contemplative prayer, not a meaningless repetitive babbling.
It is not my purpose to draw attention to my own posts, but maybe this explanation of mine from another board will help:
christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=167790&postcount=7
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Zooey
Guest
This thread reminds me of a story about Bishop Sheen. A young woman came to him & asked him how the rosary could possibly mean anything, when it was just repeating words over & over again. “I can’t believe that it is real,” she said. "How can it be real, if it’s just the same words over & over.
Bishop Sheen noticed she was wearing a diamond ring. “Are you engaged?” he asked her. “Yes”. “Has he ever told you he loves you?” “Yes, of course”, she said.
“Does he tell you every day”? the Bishop asked. Exasperated, the young woman snapped, “Yes, he loves me, and he tells me he loves me all the time!”
“Oh, my, that’s too bad,” Bishop Sheen said. “You’d better not marry him! Why, you can tell that he doesn’t mean it when he says he loves you…After all, he says the same thing all the time”…
'nuff said…
Bishop Sheen noticed she was wearing a diamond ring. “Are you engaged?” he asked her. “Yes”. “Has he ever told you he loves you?” “Yes, of course”, she said.
“Does he tell you every day”? the Bishop asked. Exasperated, the young woman snapped, “Yes, he loves me, and he tells me he loves me all the time!”
“Oh, my, that’s too bad,” Bishop Sheen said. “You’d better not marry him! Why, you can tell that he doesn’t mean it when he says he loves you…After all, he says the same thing all the time”…
'nuff said…
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BibleReader
Guest
Repetitive prayer, per se, is a fine, fine prayer. Otherwise, the Holy Spirit sinned by inspiring extremely repetitive Psalm 136.
What the condemnations of repetitive prayer refer to in the Bible are something like the kind of praying you do when you wear out the rug begging God for help on a desperate issue, with the emotional equivalent of…
“God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me! God, ya gotta help me!”
I think that desperate repeated begging is condemned because it is being repeated precisely because the repeater lacks faith!
Now, suppose someone is saying the Rosary because he is desperate and because saying those repetitions of Hail Marys is a good way to express faithless desperation.
Then, in that instance, the criticism of repeated prayers might be well-founded.
*However, *God is a God of love. I really have to wonder who God would be more upset at…(1) the desperate Catholic, agonizing about losing his job, repeating Rosary Hail Marys not to praise God, as in Psalm 136, but rather to faithlessly beg for help; or (2) the anti-Catholic who nastily believes that he is scoring a victory over us ignorant Godless Catholics by nastily condemning the Rosary as repetitive prayer.
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StCsDavid
Guest
If you prayed the rosary without including the meditative element to it as in reflecting deeply upon each mystery, then I suppose you could be accused of just repeating words without meaning. The beauty of the Rosary (or Chaplet of Divine Mercy for that matter) is that they give you a base from which to begin your pondering of our Lord. I like to do a form of Lectio Divina when I pray the Rosary. I’m sometimes amazed at the insights I perceive.
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