Where are Joseph Smith's miracles

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I would be a disappointment, I’m afraid. There are many things about the SDA’s that I rather like. ;)…and they would be right; Calvin, Luther, et. all DID pave the way the SDA’s took.

They just took a wrong fork at the last minute. 😉 Since they, I’m quite certain, believe the same thing about the Mormons, then I guess we would agree with one another about Calvin and the early Reformationists.

Diana
i appreciate this. i was going to start the thread, but i think id be too late now. lol! got real busy for a couple days. lots of things going on right now. maybe someday. id like to sit back and watch this kind of debate between two movements that came about within a few years of eachother. i do have to admit i like the Mormons much more. probably because of all the time i spent in Utah. 😃 Peace 🙂
 
There aren’t any, read…he didn’t find any when he stuck his head in the hat…and his peeping stone, well let’s say…it didn’t see any either.

stormy
 
Official declaration of the Holy Ghost- He testifies of Christ, no matter what your religion is:

HOLY GHOST
The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3: 11; 2 Ne. 31: 17; D&C 19: 31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.
For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7: 39; John 16: 7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16: 16-17; 1 Cor. 12: 3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth into the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33: 1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35: 19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1: 21).
 
Official declaration of the Holy Ghost- He testifies of Christ, no matter what your religion is:

HOLY GHOST
The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3: 11; 2 Ne. 31: 17; D&C 19: 31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.
For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7: 39; John 16: 7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16: 16-17; 1 Cor. 12: 3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth into the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33: 1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35: 19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1: 21).
I’m not quite sure as to the purpose of the above. While I understand that it may help you, interspersing quotations from Mormon documents with Sacred Scripture is not helpful or convincing to non-Mormons.

As for your comment: “Official declaration of the Holy Ghost- He testifies of Christ, no matter what your religion is:” I would take issue. The Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Truth. If a Mormon claims that he has received a “personal testimony” from the Holy Spirit (“burning in the heart”) verifying the truth of the Mormon church, while at the same time a Catholic receives the same verification concerning the Catholic Church, we have a problem. Truth cannot conflict with truth. It is one or the other or neither, never both. No other option. This should cause one to use great discernment as to who’s voice they are actually listening. Is it the voice of the Holy Spirit, or is it the voice of the enemy? A third option is the voice of our own wishes, desires and needs. One may just want it to be true for various reasons (family, friends, etc.) and so creates warm fuzzy feelings which are then misinterpreted as the voice of God.

In other words, what your religion is does matter and the Holy Spirit is not going to give you a “personal testimony” if you are following a lie. One of us, either you or me, is following a lie and it is not the Holy Spirit leading us toward that lie, but another voice. For reasons I have stated earlier in this thread, I believe the Catholic Church is the one, true Church. I have much more than an interior feeling or testimony to stand on. Do you?
 
…There IS no logical, impirical, reason to believe that God exists, based upon anything but that spiritual witness…
The existance of God can be known through human reason, though imperfectly and not fully. Creation is testament to the Creator. This idea has fueled scientific inquiry.
 
Hi!

Im Catholic and I have some doubts.

I read this form Clayton Christensen website:
*
The second topic I want to address is why I believe in the doctrines of the church. I was born into
a wonderful Mormon family, and as I grew up I found few reasons to disbelieve the teachings of the
church. My parents had deep faith in its precepts, and their example and encouragement were powerful –
I believed in my parents, and I knew that they believed the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was not until I was
24, however, that I came to know these things for myself.
I had been given a Rhodes Scholarship to study at Oxford University in England. After I had
lived there for a few weeks, far away from the supportive environment in which I had been raised, it
became clear that adhering to Mormonism in that environment was going to be very inconvenient. In
fact, doing the sorts of things I described in the first part of this essay within the Mormon congregation in
Oxford would preclude my participation in many of the things that had made Oxford such a rich
experience for prior recipients of my scholarship. I decided, as a result, that the time had come for me to
learn for certain and for myself whether Mormonism was true.
I had read the Book of Mormon before – seven times, to be exact. But in each of those instances
I had read it by assignment – from my parents or a teacher – and my objective in reading it was to finish
the book. This time, however, my objective was to find out if it was a true book or a fabrication.
Accordingly, I reserved the time from 11:00 until midnight, every night, to read the Book of Mormon
next to the fireplace in my chilly room at the Queen’s College. I began each of those sessions by kneeling
in verbal prayer. I told God, every night, that I was reading this to know if it was His truth. I told Him
that I needed an answer to this question – because if it was not true I did not want to waste my time with
this church and would search for something else. But if it was true, then I promised that I would devote
my life to following its teachings, and to helping others do the same.
I then would sit in the chair and read a page in the Book of Mormon. I would stop at the bottom
of the page and think about it. I would ask myself what the material on that page meant for the way I
needed to conduct my life. I would then get on my knees and pray aloud again, asking the Lord to tell me
if the book was true. I would then get back in the chair, turn the page, and repeat the process, for the
remainder of the hour. I did this every evening.
After I had done this for several weeks, one evening in October, 1975, as I sat in the chair and
opened the book following my prayer, I felt a marvelous spirit come into the room and envelop my body.
I had never before felt such an intense feeling of peace and love. I started to cry, and did not want to stop.
I knew then, from a source of understanding more powerful than anything I had ever felt in my life, that
the book I was holding in my hands was true. It was hard to see through the tears. But as I opened it and
began again to read, I saw in the words of the book a clarity and magnitude of God’s plan for us that I had
never conceived before. The spirit stayed with me for that entire hour. And each night thereafter, as I
prayed and then sat in that chair with the Book of Mormon, that same spirit returned. It changed my heart
and my life forever.
It was as if I had been looking out as far as I could see toward the horizon, and had been quite
satisfied that I could see everything that there was to see. When I undertook to read the Book of Mormon
in that manner, however, I discovered that so much more beauty and truth about who we are and what
God has in store for us, lies beyond that old horizon. I did not know what I did not know.
*

So… was the devil?
Why did God permitted the Devil to do such thing? Christensen is an honest man who was looking for truth.
Should I write him a polite e-mail telling him that miracles are not such a big deal, and can occur outside truth?

Thanks
 
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