Where are the GOOD MANNERS at Mass?

[Urn]

You refuse to consider any of the experiences that those of us who have posted have had. Exactly what answer are you looking for?

My experience is that there is rudeness everywhere, movies, concerts, plays (I work in the field of the performing arts and it’s a problem), Mass, restaurants. And it’s pretty much across the board as far as age goes. Polite youngsters will usually have polite parents because the acorn usually doesn’t fall far from the tree. But if their parents have been catechized that church is a moment for socializing then they will pass on that message to their brood.

Why do people act rudely (PARTICULARLY it would seem “lay ministers”) at Masses when any semblance of good manners should preclude them from doing so – no matter what might be allowed or even encouraged?

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I’ll pull out my pat answer of “poor catechesis.” Poor manners are so common at Mass because, for the last 40+ years, we’ve done a poor job teaching people about the Real Presence and everything else that makes our faith and the Mass special. To many, Mass is no longer the ultimate expression of our Catholic prayer life, but instead is a chance to get together with their friends and family every Sunday. Its status as a social event has taken priority over the celebration of the Eucharist. And outside of Holy Week, I never hear priests say a single word about being quiet before or after Mass.

For us, some weekends are better than others. A few weeks ago, it was horrible. We had several groups around us talking so loudly you could barely hear the church bells before Mass. My older daughters know how they’re supposed to behave before Mass and seldom need a reminder. It was so loud that my oldest was really bothered by it. She leaned over and whispered, asking whether these others didn’t know that others were trying to pray. I was one of those others and the noise was truly inexcusable. I told my daughters not to get upset then told them in a louder than normal voice, “Girls, you are at Mass and in God’s presence! Other people are trying to pray and talking like that is not acceptable!” My girls shrunk down in their seats, which was a nice touch and one I wish I’d have thought of. Everyone in our section of the church got as quiet as, well, church mice. The rest of the church was still pretty loud, but I was able to get through the Rosary before Mass started. And since I’d been scolding my girls and not the blabbers, nobody seemed to take it personally. I don’t know that I’d pull that trick out too often, but it worked like a charm that day.

One thing I’ve noticed is that you absolutely do not get the same behavior at daily Mass. Most mornings it’s so quiet I can hear missal pages ruffling on the other side of the church. So I guess “daily Mass” would be a good answer to the OP’s original question.

 

[Sarabande]

No, I don’t think so. I see too many older folks whose manners were formed MANY years ago who act terribly at Mass. I also see some far younger people who act with good manners at Mass.

Those younger people probably have parents and other older relatives who act with good manners and have taught them to be such a way. My mother raised me to be pretty victorian with manners. But there are PLENTY of young people who act very poorly in all situations. I find that younger people have horrible attention spans… worse than the older people and they tend to fidget, talk, go on their i-phones, text when people are talking to them, etc. I think they tend to be way more rude and unmannerly than older people in that regard.

I can also pretty much guarantee you that many of those older folks used to have better manners. I’ve seen it with family members who used to behave in certain situations with much more formality… “good manners”… but because they have been surrounded by a world that has poo-pooed that kind of behaviour, they have just gone with the flow. And this is in all situations from fancy restaurants, concert halls, graduations, etc.

I will say I have never seen it at master classes because you’d be yelled at and told to leave the room. I remember at the conservatory I studied at in Austria, the maestra yelled at someone for drinking water in her master class. It was bad manners to drink and class and don’t dare talk while she was teaching. She put the fear of God in everyone and after that first class, everyone knew what she expected. (And it’s sounds scarier when you’re yelled at in German. lol!) It was hard to get into her masterclass and you did not want to be thrown out as she only accepted 12 students, so people who would normally do little things that may have not seemed like poor manners, sat very still and very quiet.

Because manners and formality aren’t a big deal anymore in most places, you won’t see that happening. You especially won’t see ushers or a priest yelling at people and throwing them out of the church for poor manners. And you really don’t need to do that in order to make a point. Just set a good example. I’ve also seen it in past parishes I’ve been in. At one parish I worked in as a music teacher, the previous pastor was very much into reverence before and during mass and everyone in the parish acted in that way. People saved their conversations for the vestibule and outside. Once he left and a new pastor came in, the entire ambiance of the church changed. The new pastor brought this group of people who followed him from parish to parish and he and these people began to change the behaviour of everyone by their example. People who used to NEVER be boisterous in church began to act like that. It became a really loud social hall. I remember one parishioner who said that it was about time that the parish became more like a Baptist church, in terms of how loud and boisterous it was. Because the pastor encouraged this behaviour and has his group perpetuate it, people began to believe that it was ok to act this way.

It’s group mentality. When more and more people start acting a certain way, others will follow. Whether we like it or not, that is what happens. I’ve seen it enough in the short period I’ve been on this world.

 

[Sarabande]

For us, some weekends are better than others. A few weeks ago, it was horrible. We had several groups around us talking so loudly you could barely hear the church bells before Mass. My older daughters know how they’re supposed to behave before Mass and seldom need a reminder. It was so loud that my oldest was really bothered by it. She leaned over and whispered, asking whether these others didn’t know that others were trying to pray. I was one of those others and the noise was truly inexcusable. I told my daughters not to get upset then told them in a louder than normal voice, “Girls, you are at Mass and in God’s presence! Other people are trying to pray and talking like that is not acceptable!” My girls shrunk down in their seats, which was a nice touch and one I wish I’d have thought of. Everyone in our section of the church got as quiet as, well, church mice. The rest of the church was still pretty loud, but I was able to get through the Rosary before Mass started. And since I’d been scolding my girls and not the blabbers, nobody seemed to take it personally. I don’t know that I’d pull that trick out too often, but it worked like a charm that day.

I think special masses are the worst when it comes to that, mainly because many people who are either not Catholic or are Christmas and Easter Catholics come to the church and they don’t know how to act. When my cousin was confirmed, it was a multi-parish event. The church was packed and it was so loud you couldn’t even hear yourself think. Numerous times did the principal, a sister, a teacher and even the priest came out over the mic and reminded everyone that this was a house of God and that it required everyone to please be silent in the presence of the Lord while they prepared the confirmation candidates. It would be quiet for about 5 minutes, but then a tiny group of people would begin to talk, then the noise would grow and grow until it became un-Godly noisy again. And people who would usually never act like that would just “go with the flow”. I remember reminding my Grandmother many times before the confirmation began to not talk. And this woman was someone who was the epitome of propriety… especially at church. She was the one who helped raise me that way. BUT, she got caught up in the flow. Once again, mob/group mentality.

As a musician and having freelanced in 100+ Catholic churches, I also find that certain cultures are more “guilty” of this behaviour than others.

 

[Sarabande]

Why do people act rudely (PARTICULARLY it would seem “lay ministers”) at Masses when any semblance of good manners should preclude them from doing so – no matter what might be allowed or even encouraged?

Again, because formality and propriety are now bad words and whether or not they were once taught what was proper, they now believe, either through the example of the priest or others, that it is ok to act with their current behaviour. When enough people act and tell you what is appropriate, most people will believe it and act accordingly. And when you grow up without any kind of manners, you don’t know what is a “semblance of good manners”.

Look, I’m in my 30s and I know that manners were going away when I was growing up. My siblings and I were the only ones I knew of who had what my mother considered proper phone manners. We always had to say whenever we called friends, “Good Evening/Afternoon/Morning. This is Sarabande. May I please speak with Urn?” When friends called us, my mother would ask us to tell our friends to speak politely and mannerly when asking to speak with one of us. All of them would just say, “Sarabande there?” or “Is Sarabande there?” None of them were being taught what was polite and proper. My friends thought we were from another world, but they over looked it because my mom was from another country and they thought it was just a cultural thing. Parents of friends had two different responses to our manners. Some would praise us and say they wished their children spoke like that to our elders. Other would tell us to stop talking to them so formally. That we didn’t have to be so mannerly when wanting to speak with our friends. Most parents loved our manners, though, whenever we were over their homes… yet they weren’t teaching them to their own children. So, these children are now my generation, raising their own children and the ideas of manners, propriety and formality are now even less. I plan on raising my kids the same way my parents did and currently teaching my 3-year-old proper manners in life and in mass, but it’s no guarantee that others around them will encourage it.

 

[Urn]

I’ll pull out my pat answer of “poor catechesis.” Poor manners are so common at Mass because, for the last 40+ years, we’ve done a poor job teaching people about the Real Presence and everything else that makes our faith and the Mass special. To many, Mass is no longer the ultimate expression of our Catholic prayer life, but instead is a chance to get together with their friends and family every Sunday. Its status as a social event has taken priority over the celebration of the Eucharist. And outside of Holy Week, I never hear priests say a single word about being quiet before or after Mass.

For us, some weekends are better than others. A few weeks ago, it was horrible. We had several groups around us talking so loudly you could barely hear the church bells before Mass. My older daughters know how they’re supposed to behave before Mass and seldom need a reminder. It was so loud that my oldest was really bothered by it. She leaned over and whispered, asking whether these others didn’t know that others were trying to pray. I was one of those others and the noise was truly inexcusable. I told my daughters not to get upset then told them in a louder than normal voice, “Girls, you are at Mass and in God’s presence! Other people are trying to pray and talking like that is not acceptable!” My girls shrunk down in their seats, which was a nice touch and one I wish I’d have thought of. Everyone in our section of the church got as quiet as, well, church mice. The rest of the church was still pretty loud, but I was able to get through the Rosary before Mass started. And since I’d been scolding my girls and not the blabbers, nobody seemed to take it personally. I don’t know that I’d pull that trick out too often, but it worked like a charm that day.

One thing I’ve noticed is that you absolutely do not get the same behavior at daily Mass. Most mornings it’s so quiet I can hear missal pages ruffling on the other side of the church. So I guess “daily Mass” would be a good answer to the OP’s original question.

Even with poor (or NO) catechesis, Catholics should have formed good manners outside of the Church and as Catholics they should know to employ them before, during and after Mass inside of their churches.

A non-Catholic entering a Catholic church should know from their formations as humans (no matter how limited their individual formations may have been) that it’s bad form to (for example) cavalierly and loudly talk before, during and after Mass inside of the church.

Even if they are encouraged to talk, they should have the good manners not to.

There is one very unassuming fellow at my parish that dons ear plugs and ear muffs before sitting down to go through the readings. He doesn’t do it in an attention-getting manner. I asked him about it and he said something like “I’m an engineer. There’s problems at this parish. I’m in no position to solve them but I can take simple measures so that they will not impact me.”

 

[Urn]

Something came to mind positive that I wanted to mention.

Our former parochial right out of seminary vicar used to do something that astounded me. He would arrive for Mass 30-40-50 minutes early (rather than the typical 5) and wander around our large church.

He would kneel on one knee next to those who made eye contact with him and very quietly greet them, ask how they were doing, if everything was OK, etc. Even though he whispered (and so did everyone he encountered) he would typically move on as soon as someone sat down close enough to hear.

Many of these folks had not spoken to a priest 1-on-1 for years. I suspect her heard more than a few confessions during his little journeys. He was only at our parish for about 6 months but in that time he became beloved by many.

He stayed far away from the boisterous back-slappers and other insiders who wanted to monopolize his time. It was really something to witness. The church was typically far quieter when he was making his rounds.

 

[Urn]

Again, because formality and propriety are now bad words and whether or not they were once taught what was proper, they now believe, either through the example of the priest or others, that it is ok to act with their current behaviour. When enough people act and tell you what is appropriate, most people will believe it and act accordingly. And when you grow up without any kind of manners, you don’t know what is a “semblance of good manners”.

I think most people have enough manners not to act rude at Mass. Watch how people act when they have to appear in court – even for jury duty. How they act during job interviews, performance evaluations, meetings with their bosses or school principals, inside public libraries, etc., etc.

The ability to act with good manners is in the huge majority of us. I’m wondering why a call to jury duty makes most of us exhibit these good manners while attending the Mass does not for so many?

Look, I’m in my 30s and I know that manners were going away when I was growing up. My siblings and I were the only ones I knew of who had what my mother considered proper phone manners. We always had to say whenever we called friends, “Good Evening/Afternoon/Morning. This is Sarabande. May I please speak with Urn?” When friends called us, my mother would ask us to tell our friends to speak politely and mannerly when asking to speak with one of us. All of them would just say, “Sarabande there?” or “Is Sarabande there?” None of them were being taught what was polite and proper. My friends thought we were from another world, but they over looked it because my mom was from another country and they thought it was just a cultural thing. Parents of friends had two different responses to our manners. Some would praise us and say they wished their children spoke like that to our elders. Other would tell us to stop talking to them so formally. That we didn’t have to be so mannerly when wanting to speak with our friends. Most parents loved our manners, though, whenever we were over their homes… yet they weren’t teaching them to their own children. So, these children are now my generation, raising their own children and the ideas of manners, propriety and formality are now even less. I plan on raising my kids the same way my parents did and currently teaching my 3-year-old proper manners in life and in mass, but it’s no guarantee that others around them will encourage it.

It’s good that your parents went the extra mile to instill good manners in you. I don’t think it requires that to instinctively know not to act rude inside of a church – any church.

 

[Pug]

Jury duty, the library = well-behaved?

I’m starting to think that this issue may be related to where you live, or rather, where I live relative to you. Courtrooms have to be shushed by officials, jurors talk about the case while out on lunch, and our local library simply gave up and allows talking now throughout the whole building, save for one room, aptly named the “quiet room”. They put up displays designed to enchant children, and hence will attract talking, right through the center of everything.

 

[kookieduck]

Hmm
Not that Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit isn’t present in the Church because the Holy Trinity is more than present in Church but for myself also very present in all that I do so I for one am no different in Church to out of Church. I don’t talk very different in Church to out of Church because God is all around and it confuses me how people want to be so very different in Church as though God only sees them there and not anywhere else. God sees me where ever I am and I am with God wherever I am and have glimpses of feeling God - in HIS Presence whereever I am so to me it don’t matter whether I am in Church or out of Church and I really don’t understand why we have to be different in Church. I don’t get that at all. I am me. If am having a good day I will natter to the priest and if am having a bad day he knows me enough. He is the only one I really chat to in Church anyway because yeh you get the folk who like to hush others for their own silence as they are only thinking about themselves not about each other. So that one is a little bit of swings and roundabouts I guess. I am able to be ‘me’ with the priest which I am unable to be ‘me’ with others. Just like what are good manners? Good manners to whom. Yourself, to the priest, to God? God sees us 7 days of the week all the time and to turn on good manners when in Church seems fake and false to me and I refuse to go down that route. Though I am fortunate am good manners enough anyway though no doubt someone might sitting in Church judging me for my Manners rather than accepting me as a Christian as we perhaps ought to be doing. If we really are concerned about manners in Church then are we in the right mental place for ‘mass’ ourselves because really it not about us is it but about God, about Jesus and they see us for who we really are and not a put on show because we are in Church

Well, I get your point, but I’m me when I clip my fingernails and floss my teeth but I don’t do that in public out of consideration for others. Same as talking. I talk back out loud to the TV when I’m at home but when I’m in a movie theater I don’t because I don’t want to disturb others. It’s not a sham or a show to change how I behave in different places but out of consideration for others. I don’t practice juggling at a funeral either.

 

[Sarabande]

I think most people have enough manners not to act rude at Mass. Watch how people act when they have to appear in court – even for jury duty. How they act during job interviews, performance evaluations, meetings with their bosses or school principals, inside public libraries, etc., etc.

The ability to act with good manners is in the huge majority of us. I’m wondering why a call to jury duty makes most of us exhibit these good manners while attending the Mass does not for so many?

I think you may have passed over what many people, including myself, have been telling you. People act just as badly in other places - jury duty, public libraries (that is sometimes one of the worst places to go to), classical concert halls, opera houses, etc. When I was working in the corporate environment, during business meetings, people would be texting, falling asleep, talking quietly etc. while the meeting was progressing. Performance evaluations are different. You are usually not in a huge room full of people. At the very least, it’s just you and the person doing the evaluation. You might have two other people in there doing the evaluation. All of the other places you are usually in that group/mob mentality.

As I have said before, the only time I’ve ever seen every person in a room not act rudely like they do in all aspects of life was at master classes and that was because they knew they were going to be yelled at or kicked out of the class. It didn’t matter if it was here in the States, in Austria or in Italy. (And if you want to see rudeness outside of mass during an opera, try attending one in Italy. Singers… good singers… can be heckled off the stage. At one opera I attended, because people hated the staging, a person yelled out “The director is s–t!” in Italian and people clapped. )

Perhaps where you live is different, but I know where I live, formality and propriety, no matter where you are is going out the door. I don’t think it’s right as I prefer and appreciate good manners, but many of the younger ones, I believe, haven’t been taught it at home, so they have no clue.

It’s good that your parents went the extra mile to instill good manners in you. I don’t think it requires that to instinctively know not to act rude inside of a church – any church.

Actually, in today’s world, I do think it does require that kind of training. When you have everyone else around you acting “boorish” in all areas of life, a person needs to have it ingrained in their heads in order to not forget and just go with the flow. But it’s not really going the extra mile. This is what all parents used to do with their children. My mother always claimed that she was raised 20-30 years behind her generation (baby boomers). She was really surprised and put off by the lack of manners and formality in the U.S. and was determined to make sure we didn’t end up like that. Less people are teaching manners and it isn’t intuitive. That is something which needs to be taught, and you can begin with the little things when the child is as young as two or as soon as the child knows how to say “Please” and “Thank you” and punishments and rewards for good behaviour in public places such as in a church or the library, etc. When parents don’t do that or don’t instill it enough, what happens to the children when they become older children and adults and are influenced by the outside world which also doesn’t value manners? They become the people you complain about and pass it on to their children.

 

[Sarabande]

Even if they are encouraged to talk, they should have the good manners not to.

I agree with you if good manners have been instilled in them. But if they have never been taught good manners (and today that is happening more and more), they don’t have anything to fall back on. It doesn’t appear rude to them, especially when it is encouraged. Formality and manners just looks like it is for a bunch of nearly dead, old fogies or for snobs who are too stiff to really enjoy life.

 

[SMHW]

I think most people have enough manners not to act rude at Mass. Watch how people act when they have to appear in court – even for jury duty. How they act during job interviews, performance evaluations, meetings with their bosses or school principals, inside public libraries, etc., etc.

The ability to act with good manners is in the huge majority of us. I’m wondering why a call to jury duty makes most of us exhibit these good manners while attending the Mass does not for so many?

It’s good that your parents went the extra mile to instill good manners in you. I don’t think it requires that to instinctively know not to act rude inside of a church – any church.

Jury duty, the library = well-behaved?

I’m starting to think that this issue may be related to where you live, or rather, where I live relative to you. Courtrooms have to be shushed by officials, jurors talk about the case while out on lunch, and our local library simply gave up and allows talking now throughout the whole building, save for one room, aptly named the “quiet room”. They put up displays designed to enchant children, and hence will attract talking, right through the center of everything.

Yes.

Urn, we mean you no personal disrespect but you don’t seem to be comprehending what some of us are saying.

We disagree with you that people have been taught good manners or have the instinctive ability to act with good manners. You keep repeating your premise. You will have to give us better evidence if you want to prove it to us.

Some parents and teachers instill these values. And a few people seem to have a natural sense of decorum. But those cases are minorities.

People talk everywhere that they are not individually reprimanded for doing so. Most places have given up on such reprimands and have adjusted their routines to permit it. If talking is forbidden (such as in movie theaters) it is usually because fellow *paying *customers are enforcing it.

Many young people are raised to be suspicious of existing social conventions. Some have outright disdain for them. I think the suspicious aspect is even more insidious.

Perhaps this has not been your personal experience outside of Mass. If so, we think live in an unusual place.