Where did they go to?

[blackfish152]

There are two old Testament examples of assumption into Heaven: Genesis 5:24 for Enoch and 2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah.

John 3:13 …says that no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended, the Son of Man.

Now apart from the seeming contradiction in the above 2 verses, can anyone reconcile them?

Also how is it possible for these 2 OT men, to enter heaven before the Merits of Calvery were made possible for the forgiveness of sins, such that man may enter into the Presence of the Lord God.

Peace

M.

 

[Anima_Christi]

I’m not sure how John 3.13 is explained. However, I’m sure that they entered heaven in view of the future merits of Calvary, just as God saved Mary from original sin in view of the merits of Christ. God is not limited by time as we are.

 

[Lazerlike42]

2 Kings 2:11 And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
John 3:13 “No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, … the Son of Man.”
Some skeptics charge Jesus with missing out on Elijah being first to “ascend into heaven” but the solution is the same as it is today: The Hebrew word translated “heaven” in the first verse. shamiyim, simply means the sky, as “heavens” does metaphorically today. The “heavens” were also regarded as the abode of God, but at the time of 2 Kings there was as yet no conception of “Heaven” with a capital H as the special abode of God shared with His people.

The Greek word in the second verse, ouranos, can also mean the sky, but it is also used in the sense of God’s realm (as in, the “Kingdom of Heaven” [ouranos]. Note John 3:27 “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.” The word carries theological freight that shamiyim does not. Therefore, there is no conflict in these verses, for 2 Kings merely asserts where Elijah went physically and carries no theological overtones.

To this we need to add one more verse sometimes thrown in the fray:

Gen. 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
The same answer applies here, but note as well that this verse does not say that Enoch went to “heaven” – a critic merely assumes that Enoch went to heaven in order to find a contradiction!

This leads into a secondary objection:

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
It is observed that Elijah and Enoch were both corrupt flesh and blood persons who could therefore not “inherit the kingdom of God.” But neither Elijah nor Enoch did “inherit the kingdom of God” - they were simply taken away, Elijah into the physical sky, Enoch to an unspecified place. We do not know what their current state is.

• tektonics.org/af/firstascent.html

This is a beginning. Somebody now needs to reconcile a few things with Catholic doctrine.

Namely, somebody needs to explain the Catholic understanding of Heaven and Hell as places vs. states, and in what sense each is to be understood. Also, somebody needs to weave the Assumption into this, for instance reconciling it with the idea that flesh and blood to not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, which would seem to indicate Heaven as a state and not a place (which would preclude Mary from going there."

 

[BibleReader]

blackfish152:

There are two old Testament examples of assumption into Heaven: Genesis 5:24 for Enoch and 2 Kings 2:11 for Elijah.

John 3:13 …says that no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended, the Son of Man.

Now apart from the seeming contradiction in the above 2 verses, can anyone reconcile them?

Also how is it possible for these 2 OT men, to enter heaven before the Merits of Calvery were made possible for the forgiveness of sins, such that man may enter into the Presence of the Lord God.

Peace

M.

Two other possible candidates for pre-general resurrection assumption are Noah and Moses. Though we are later told that Noah “died,” Genesis 9:29, Genesis 6:10 also says that Noah “walked with God,” using the precise same Hebrew word applied to Enoch. Additionally, though we are told that Moses “died,” Deuteronomy 34:5, we are ALSO told that the Archangel Michael fought with Satan for Moses body – and presumably WON it, Jude 1:9, so that, low and behold, just as we see assumed Elijah standing with Christ at the time of the Transfiguration, we see Moses there, too.

Now, why does John 3:13 read the way it does?

Read the context, and you will see your answer.

11 Amen, amen, I say to you, **we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony. **12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man. John 3:11-13.Apparently, what John 3:13 means is, “No one has gone up to Heaven and then come down so that he can describe to you what he saw], except the One Who has come down from Heaven, the Son of Man.”

He wasn’t denying prior assumptions. He was just denying that there were any eyewitnesses to Heaven available to the human race.