Where does the Church believe non-christians will go in the after life?

[PJM]

=gentle atheist;9349975]I am a cradle Catholic turned atheist. I still have a soft spot in my heart for the Catholic Church. But this “I’m OK, you’re OK” ecumenism that started with Vatican 2 – and is exemplified by Vouthon’s posts – destroyed my faith.

The Catholic Church needs a pope who will strengthen Catholics in the Catholic faith instead of strengthening Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. in their respective faiths.

The FACT that God ONLY accepts belief in HIM Alone; And His Faith beliefs alne and then ONLY through His founded Catholic Church is critical to everyones salvation.

The Practice of OUR Faith does not; and ought not rely on what others do. To let others “send us to hell” is just egotistic foolisness.

Right is always RIGHT; and wrong always wrong.

Heaven and Hell are REAL and God forgives BUT will permit us to choose HEll [hint; hint]

You would be WISE to rehink your position my friend,

Heb.6 Verses 4 to 8

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,[CHRISTIAN BAPTISM] who have tasted the heavenly gift,[CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION] and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [CONFIRMED IN THEE FAITH] [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God[TAUGHT THE TRUE MEANING OF THE GOSPELS] and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. [7] For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. [HEAVEN] But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned. [hell!] … WE GET TO DECIDE!

God Bless you,
pat /PJM

 

[PJM]

=meltzerboy;9348634]Might not an agnostic or an atheist have sought or still be seeking G-d but have not yet found Him? And might they not also do G-d’s Will by their acts of charity toward their neighbors (and, in that sense, they HAVE found G-d)? I think the Catholic Church intentionally refrains from saying outright that atheists and agnostics are damned and is purposefully either silent or ambiguous on this point.

So we disagree once again.

ONLY God can make the salvation /judgment call.

Chrsit Church SPELLS in out quite clearly.

Everytone is GRANTED at least sufficient Grace to Know OF GOD

Only those who CANNOT KNOW GOD/ Know Christ by life circumstances will be judged on charity alone.

Everyone who COULD KNOW GOD through Christ but choose not too; or in a manner of there own personal belief system; NOT Christ choosing is at risk for hell.

God Bless friend,
pat/PJM

 

[TrueLight]

I’ts a good thing this thread is not in the TC forum.

 

[Vouthon]

I’ts a good thing this thread is not in the TC forum.

I agree although ironically most of my sources are pre-Vatican II and very traditional - its just that some so-called Traditionalists have a very selective view of Catholic history.

The slightest hint or whiff of a seemingly restrictive text referring to the dogma of EENS from a Church Father or Medeival pope is taken out of context, all other contrary inclusivist statements from these people are ignored as well as the general tradition of the Church, and these statements are then inflated beyond all recognition and trumpeted as “evidence”. Its a strange, sad and rather peculiar phenomenon/syndrome that I have found on CAF.

 

[TrueLight]

I agree although ironically most of my sources are pre-Vatican II and very traditional - its just that some so-called Traditionalists have a very selective view of Catholic history.

The slightest hint or whiff of a seemingly restrictive text referring to the dogma of EENS from a Church Father or Medeival pope is taken out of context, all other contrary inclusivist statements from these people are ignored as well as the general tradition of the Church, and these statements are then inflated beyond all recognition and trumpeted as “evidence”. Its a strange, sad and rather peculiar phenomenon/syndrome that I have found on CAF.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying traditionalists are wrong. You have to admit that Pre-Vatican II and Vatican II documents regarding extra ecclesiam nulla salus are not quite the same.

Anyway, I’m not here to debate it. I just thought the different responses were interesting.

 

[Vouthon]

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying traditionalists are wrong. You have to admit that Pre-Vatican II and Vatican II documents regarding extra ecclesiam nulla salus are not quite the same.

Anyway, I’m not here to debate it. I just thought the different responses were interesting.

My dear TrueLight

Don’t worry I’m not looking for a debate.

It depends how you define Traditionalist. If you mean a preference for the Extraordinary Form of Mass, Latin and old styles of worship/traditions/customs then yes I have no problem with traditionalism and actually support it, since I have a soft spot for the Tridentine Rite myself.

However if you mean by Traditionalism the false, pseudo-Catholicism which posits a rupture between a so-called fantasy-land utopia called “pre-Vatican II” Catholicism and “post-Vatican II” Catholicism then you will find mortal enemy number 1 times a zillion in me. This is honestly no better than Liberals who are bagering for women priests, recognition of homosexual sex and abortion. Both these so-called “Traditionalists” and the Liberals are being unfaithful to the Magisterium and I simply have no time for either of them, sorry.

I cannot agree with you that pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II documents on EENS are different if by different you mean “doctrine” wise. If you mean difference in how the truths of the Catholic faith are presented, in more flowery, careful prose and respectful, modern, 21st century lingo-talk then yesm you are spot on but if you are hinting at changes in actual teaching then, no you are way, way off.

All Vatican II did was present a codification of the past 2,000 years of Catholic tradition - an authentic interpretation if you will. It introduced no new dogmas. It merely presented the perrenial truths of the Catholic faith in language that was understandable too and catered towards the needs of modern 20th century and now 21st century people. It was a new lick of paint on an already perfectly working automobile, not an entirely new interior.

There are too many falsehoods spread amongst so-called Traditionalists too make me just as war of their faithfulness to the Magisterium as ultra-liberals who support religious indiferentism, homosexual sex, abortion, women priests and what-not other idiocies.

The Church has always taught that it is the One true Church of Jesus Christ outside of which there can be no salvation. It is every bit as insistent on this front “post-Vatican II” as it was “pre-Vatican II”. And just as before the Council, it teaches that it is possible for people bodily outside of her to spiritually be within her, given the right circumstances, lack of knowledge or social, mental or psychological blocks/experiences and therefore to receive salvation through baptism by implicit desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to the dictates of conscience.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow and so is his Church against which the gates of Sheol shall never prevail.

Her message is every the same throughout history, only the form changes.

 

[Rabbity]

From atheist to atheist…that sounds like good advice.

Rabbity - glad you joined this forum too. Atheist make this discussion deeper and force us Christians to provide a reasonable and faithful response to the hope that lives inside us.

I hope we both obtain fruit from one another.

Keep posting!

Kind Regards,

James

Thank you James and likewise. I hadn’t planned to post in this thread but I thought GA might benefit from the POV of someone with a lifetime of non-believing experience.

As for the question of where the church believes non-christians will go in the afterlife, I’ll leave that to you guys to hash out. While I have some curiousity about what you have to say I have no real investment in the answer. Whether you think I’ll go to heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, Valhalla, the Elysian Fields, Sto-vo-kor, or reincarnate, etc. it makes no difference to me.

 

[JaKael02]

Thank you James and likewise. I hadn’t planned to post in this thread but I thought GA might benefit from the POV of someone with a lifetime of non-believing experience.

As for the question of where the church believes non-christians will go in the afterlife, I’ll leave that to you guys to hash out. While I have some curiousity about what you have to say I have no real investment in the answer. Whether you think I’ll go to heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, Valhalla, the Elysian Fields, Sto-vo-kor, or reincarnate, etc. it makes no difference to me.

As you being an atheist, you shouldn’t care what the Church believes. However, I am curious to ask what you think happens when life ends?

Do you agree with Stephen Hawkings that your brain just turns off like a computer and just cease to exist?

I havn’t heard from many atheists regarding that.

Thank you,

James

 

[PJM]

=JaKael02;9360732]As you being an atheist, you shouldn’t care what the Church believes. However, I am curious to ask what you think happens when life ends?

Do you agree with Stephen Hawkings that your brain just turns off like a computer and just cease to exist?

I havn’t heard from many atheists regarding that.

Thank you,

James

Good point James

And what about our “God like” Spiritual attributes?

Our Minds, Intellects and freewill are permnately attached to our souls [for this conversation: that which annimates all life]. Like God they are SPIRITUAL THINGS, and cannot be killed or die.

Tell about your freewill for example: what is it size, shape, coloe, weight?

God Bless,
pat /PJM

 

[wcknight]

…

Only those who CANNOT KNOW GOD/ Know Christ by life circumstances will be judged on charity alone.
…

pat/PJM

Sorry, I think we will ALL be judged on charity… it’s the only measurement that God will apply to all… Love God above all else, love neighbor… its that simple…

Just because we’re believers doesn’t make anyone exempt from being charitable, maybe that’s part of our problem.

 

[PJM]

=wcknight;9364315]Sorry, I think we will ALL be judged on charity… it’s the only measurement that God will apply to all… Love God above all else, love neighbor… its that simple…

Just because we’re believers doesn’t make anyone exempt from being charitable, maybe that’s part of our problem.

NOT According to OUR Catholic Catechism it’s not

845 “To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood”

846 “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

**847 **“This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

And as to your "Only Charity” view; it is clearly Not biblically grounded:

Matt. 19:17 JESUS Himself said: “If you would enter life, keep the commandments." And here again in John 3:35-36 “the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.”

You would do well by “catholic” friend to stay with what the CC Teaches if you value heaven.

CHARITY is required; BUT not the ONLY condition for ones salvation.

God Bless you.

Pat /PJM

 

[Rabbity]

As you being an atheist, you shouldn’t care what the Church believes. However, I am curious to ask what you think happens when life ends?

Do you agree with Stephen Hawkings that your brain just turns off like a computer and just cease to exist?

I havn’t heard from many atheists regarding that.

Thank you,

James

Some atheists believe in some kind of afterlife but I personally do not.

When we die our consciousness dissipates and all life functions cease. There is no “soul” and nothing of us survives death.

If evidence - good, scientific evidence being peer-reviewed and seriously discussed in reputable publications such as Scientific American or the New England Journal of Medicine - comes to light that says or suggests otherwise then I’ll revise my opinion appropriately.

Our minds, free will (the capacity to consciously make choices) and intellect are the products of evolution and environment.

To be blunt, don’t atheist hate to be told they will be “prayed for”?

I can only speak for myself. If someone says it with good intentions I either say “thanks” or not say anything. If they’re being snotty then I’ll say, “Knock yourself out. It’s your time you’re wasting, not mine.”

 

[wcknight]

NOT According to OUR Catholic Catechism it’s not

…

CHARITY is required; BUT not the ONLY condition for ones salvation.

God Bless you.

Pat /PJM

I don’t see how this contradicts my statement… we will all be jugded on love, did we love God and did we love our neighbor.

That’s the same two commandments that Jesus taught. Everything thing else is a subset to this.

Yes the Church is critical to salvation, but loving God requires us to follow His Church. I think we are looking at the same requirement from two sides of the same coin.

 

[PJM]

=wcknight;9367655]I don’t see how this contradicts my statement… we will all be jugded on love, did we love God and did we love our neighbor.

That’s the same two commandments that Jesus taught. Everything thing else is a subset to this.

Yes the Church is critical to salvation, but loving God requires us to follow His Church. I think we are looking at the same requirement from two sides of the same coin.

Your implication IF ??? I understood you correctly that LOVE is the only issue:shrug:

It’s NOT. It is EXTREMELY important but by itself will not get any believer to heaven

God Bless my friend,
Pat /PJM

 

[wcknight]

Your implication IF ??? I understood you correctly that LOVE is the only issue:shrug:

It’s NOT. It is EXTREMELY important but by itself will not get any believer to heaven

God Bless my friend,
Pat /PJM

I must be extremely dense and missing the point, what else matters ?

IF I really love God above all else, I listen to His word, follow His commandments, including the dictates of His Church. (BTW, loving our neighbors, could also been seen as a subset of that). It seems to me to be all inclusive. What else is outside of that ??

 

[PJM]

=wcknight;9370355]I must be extremely dense and missing the point, what else matters ?

IF I really love God above all else, I listen to His word, follow His commandments, including the dictates of His Church. (BTW, loving our neighbors, could also been seen as a subset of that). It seems to me to be all inclusive. What else is outside of that ??

How about Baptism [John 3:5]

No Mortal sins unconfessed and unforgiven [John 20-23]

Keeping the Commandments {Mt. 19:17]

Grace: Tit.2: 11 “For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men”

Faith: Rom.1: 16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Christian Baptism: John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

FULL- Obedience: [17] “…. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."… John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” … 2 Thess. 1: 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” …… Mt.7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Heb.13:17 “Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you [THIS MEANS THE POPE AND THE CC] … Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”…Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” MT. 28:16-20 “Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.”

God Bless,
Pat

 

[wcknight]

I think ALL of that falls under loving God. AT least to me it does.

 

[aragonjohn1]

As far as I know God is the judge.

And according to the catechism " those outside of the faith can be saved if they have willful or unknowing ignorance of God And (or?) good works"

Shalom

 

[donship]

As far as I know God is the judge.

And according to the catechism " those outside of the faith can be saved if they have willful or unknowing ignorance of God And (or?) good works"

Shalom

When reading this line in the catechism, I personally and totally agree with the “unknowing” part. I do, however, do not understand the “willful” part ???

I hope you understand that I am a sinner and believe I need full repentance and Reconciliation to achieve salvation, as I was taught by the CC, as a young boy (I am now 57 yrs old). I just have a problem with understanding how an atheist can live a life of willfully disregarding the Lord, living a life of willful bad intent and never desiring or feeling as though they will need salvation.

I apologize for my ignorance on understanding this part. I DO believe all should be saved by the Lord’s Grace, but I also can see that in this fallen world, one could use it as an excuse, and we should understand the potential danger of relating this to someone (esp. the youth), and feeling as though they will be saved anyway???

Any help to allow me to better understand this and resolve the confusion I have as stated above is truly appreciated.

Thank you and May the Good Lord Bless You, now and forever.

Gratefully Yours,

Don

 

[aragonjohn1]

When reading this line in the catechism, I personally and totally agree with the “unknowing” part. I do, however, do not understand the “willful” part ???

I hope you understand that I am a sinner and believe I need full repentance and Reconciliation to achieve salvation, as I was taught by the CC, as a young boy (I am now 57 yrs old). I just have a problem with understanding how an atheist can live a life of willfully disregarding the Lord, living a life of willful bad intent and never desiring or feeling as though they will need salvation.

I apologize for my ignorance on understanding this part. I DO believe all should be saved by the Lord’s Grace, but I also can see that in this fallen world, one could use it as an excuse, and we should understand the potential danger of relating this to someone (esp. the youth), and feeling as though they will be saved anyway???

Any help to allow me to better understand this and resolve the confusion I have as stated above is truly appreciated.

Thank you and May the Good Lord Bless You, now and forever.

Gratefully Yours,

Don

baptism of desire – this desire for Baptism can be implicit or explicit. A non-Christian of any religion, or even an agnostic or atheist, can obtain such a baptism by implicitly desiring the state of grace given by Baptism, which is essentially the state of continually loving God and neighbor. This love of God can also be implicit, allowing even an atheist to be saved.

Shalom : )

God bless

John