Where is the line between veneration (dulia) and idolatry?

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Hi. I am Filipino and we just celebrated the 400th anniversary of the Feast of the Black Nazarene, a life-size statue of Jesus brought to the country from Mexico. Some background here.

Anyway, as Filipinos are very fanatical about these feasts, risking death or a stampede just so they could swipe their handkerchief on the statue for blessings, luck or healing, I was wondering what you can consider as idolatry?

I know that faith defines worship not the object (as exemplified by the bleeding woman in scriptures) but I wonder how far is too far?
 
Such veneration is entirely biblical

Numbers 21:8-9
And the LORD said unto Moses, “Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.” And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

2 Kings 13:20-21
And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Acts 19:11-12
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Acts 5:15-16
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

Mark 5:25-29
And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years, And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole. And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.

We must always remember that any “power” that comes from a relic or saint is merely an out flowing of Gods grace. To ignore this fact and believe an object or saint has a power of its own distinct from that of God would be idolatry.
 
Hi Nazarene,

Idolatry is giving creatures the veneration due to God. If we attribute divine powers to a statue or a spring or any other creature, we are practicing idolatry.

Many less knowledgeable Catholics would seem to be doing this. But if you push them into a corner, most of them would say that they are means to God’s favors. We should do our best to instruct people correctly, but err rather on the side of indulgence.

Finally, “by their fruits you shall know them.” If as a result of their religious practices, they lead better lives, then who is to condemn them?

Verbum
 
nazarene1126 said:
Hi. I am Filipino and we just celebrated the 400th anniversary of the Feast of the Black Nazarene, a life-size statue of Jesus brought to the country from Mexico. Some background here.

Anyway, as Filipinos are very fanatical about these feasts, risking death or a stampede just so they could swipe their handkerchief on the statue for blessings, luck or healing, I was wondering what you can consider as idolatry?

I know that faith defines worship not the object (as exemplified by the bleeding woman in scriptures) but I wonder how far is too far?
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The line is in the heart, and only God can see it.

I, too, cringe on occasion when I witness what I consider to be excess or superstition, but I am not God.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I know we cannot judge what is in the hearts of people…I just hope that all devotees have knowledge of the Gospel. It’s sad to think of the possibility that their devotion is due more to legend than faith…
 
nazarene1126 said:
Thanks for all the responses. I know we cannot judge what is in the hearts of people…I just hope that all devotees have knowledge of the Gospel. It’s sad to think of the possibility that their devotion is due more to legend than faith…
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Perhaps you are being called to be a teacher of the Faith or a catechist? That way you will be part of the solution! 🙂
 
Many less knowledgeable Catholics would seem to be doing this.
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This is news to me. I have never come accross ‘one of those catholics’ so far as I am aware.

My understanding is that there are three levels of honour. The highest of which is worship in its pure form, which is given to the one true triune God alone.

Below that is the level of honour given to the Mother of God and below that, the honour given to the angels and the saints.

I am not aware of anyone worshipping statues or images. No doubt they revere them as part of their spirituality. I have a statue of the BVM. Every time I see it I feel compelled to kneel and praise the Holy Trinity. I do not worship it. Such an idea or suggestion is preposterous and grossely inaccurate
 
It’s okay to be excited and joyful about these things. Clearly, most of those people who overdo it are not so much giving the saints honor which belongs to God alone, as getting a little too caught up in the moment.

I mean, think what people do at rock concerts, or when they see a celebrity. Does that reflect their true beliefs? Or did they go somewhere to be part of the excitement, and just got a little too hyper?
 
A POV from the other end of Christianity.
Even things done with the best of intentions that are against Gods will are wrong. (veneration dulia idolatry) whatever you want to call it, is pretty much in contradiction to Exo. 20:4-5
 
Even things done with the best of intentions that are against Gods will are wrong. (veneration dulia idolatry) whatever you want to call it, is pretty much in contradiction to Exo. 20:4-5
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I venerate creation.I marvel at what God has created I therefore try not to hurt it. But I do not worship it. That is the fundamental difference. 👍
 
(4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me) Ex 20:4-5
Either I better get rid of all my money, which has likenesses of things on the earth or I should understand this verse correctly. (the only way to object to Catholicism is the misrepresent the Bible)

To attribute this to Catholics would be to insult God and say that God does not have the ability to discern the difference between worship and honor given to those we love.

This is common from a non-christian point of view since many non-christians make idols and worship them. Their intent is to worship the images as “God” and this is not wrong in their belief system, but forbidden as Catholics.

In addition all objections to Catholic veneration is always based on a misrepresentation of Catholic belief, since Catholics reserve worship of God most specifically in the Mass. Since proper worship involves Sacrifice the only action humans can do which even gives worship to God is unite our worship in the one Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
Any action we do singing, praying etc is nothing compared to the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, the only way to worship God is to put our trust in the one Sacrifice of Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Which is why it is so blasphemous when people deny it, as they are denying the efficacy of Jesus on the Cross being able to be united in our desire to give God something worthy of Him.

We can never know people’s heart, but this is frequently denied by people who attack the Catholic Church. They attributing worship, by observing the ferverent love many have for Mary, which is required as Christians, yet denied by many. Which is unfortunate and depressing in the denial of the value of love of Mary, which just testifies to the power of Christ.

God Bless
Scylla

It is easy to attack Catholicism as Satan provides many lies which make objections as simple as submitting your will to the evil one, or you can honestly and objectively seek God’s will.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
A POV from the other end of Christianity.
Even things done with the best of intentions that are against Gods will are wrong. (veneration dulia idolatry) whatever you want to call it, is pretty much in contradiction to Exo. 20:4-5
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Yes, it is wrong. No question.

However, I’m not so sure, MFM, about how God views the problem.

When people get carried away by misunderstanding, there is less culpability. He grades on a curve to some degree, but He does so extremely accurately.

God knows that people like this have gotten “off track” shall we say, but he also knows why and how it happened. He can also judge correctly whether they were trying to do the right thing even if they actually screwed up.

This form of “idolatry” would be far less offensive to God, IMO, than that of outright rejection of or rebellion against God in favor of another god.
 
Hi Sixtus,

»Many less knowledgeable Catholics would seem to be doing this. »

This is news to me. I have never come accross ‘one of those catholics’ so far as I am aware

The operative words are “would seem”.

Verbum
 
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