Where now Fatima

[John_19_59]

Upfront - if it wasn’t for the fact that twenty five years ago someone told me about the events at Fatima I would not be a practising Catholic. I have a lot to be grateful for to God, Our Lady and Lucia.

But I must admit I have been increasingly puzzled by events over the last twenty years in regard to Fatima, and especially the last 4 years.

Why?

Well the Vatican seems to want to draw a line under it all and close the book, but to me it seems that is not possible.

My reasons are…

1. Russia is obviously not converted (unless Our Lady meant converted to capitalism - which I’m sure she didn’t).
2. Sin is even more prevalent in the world than in 1917.
3. Man continues to offend God on an even greater scale.
4. The Immaculate Heart of Mary has not triumphed yet.
5. The Catholic Church is in a perilous state.
6. Many Catholic schools teach plurality of religions and are afraid to teach the one true religion.
7. Modernism has a firm grip amongst the Catholic hierarchy.
8. Traditional Catholic dogma is being ignored in the quest for ecumenism.
9. The consecration of Russia has certainly not been carried out AS REQUESTED.
   and so on… the world is still a mess basically and its getting worse.

But the biggest puzzle for me is the Vatican release and interpretation of the Third Secret - to me it doesn’t stack up. It doesn’t make sense in terms of what Popes, Cardinals and others who read the secret said about it after John XXIII read it in 1959. It doesn’t make sense in terms of what Sr Lucia said about it on various occasions. It doesn’t make sense because it has no reference to the known words of Our Lady “In Portgual the dogma of faith will always be preserved etc”. Where’s the rest of that section gone?

Has someone decided to withhold part of it?

In the 1950’s Lucia said that the secret would make more sense after 1960, but I don’t see that in what has been told to us. The only significant event post 1960 that could fit is Vatican II.

Also the described vision only fits the assasination attempt on John Paul with the use of a very considerable amount of “spin”.

I don’t think Fatima is over by a long way (I hope not anyway).

The world needs converting - to the Catholic Church - to the one True Religion - To the Church founded by Jesus Christ. None of this being nice to other religions nonsense - the Truth is the Truth and is found in Jesus Christ only.

The Church’s are emptying today because of 40 years of wrong-headedness about what the mission of the Church and its relationship with other religions.

Many Catholic’s now are indifferent to their own faith because of this - if I hear “You don’t have to go to Church to be good” one more time I will burst!

As I said I’m puzzled.

But I’m also hopeful - Our Lady said her Immaculate heart WILL triumph in the end.

Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.
Jesus have mercy on us and help us see.

/John

 

[puzzleannie]

If you accepted the Catholic Church and professed faith in all that it holds and teaches, you professed faith in its teaching authority. Fatima is a closed book. It is private revelation in any case, and although the Church has ruled that the messages received from Mary (not from any self-proclaimed experts after the fact including Fr. Gruner and the Blue Army) are worthy of belief, they are not binding on Catholics. You are permitted but not required to believe. Rome has spoken, case closed. If any Catholic denies this then they have a grave problem with magesterial authority in general which goes way beyond the endless theories about the Fatima message, and that issue should be dealt with through prayer and study.

 

[John_19_59]

Rome has spoken, case closed.
**
They wish!

I am not bound to accept the interpretation offered by Rome (unless you can show me otherwise).

The Vatican interpretation suggested that Sr Lucia actually may have imagined it all, that there was no objective reality to it.

I accept the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church - always have and always will. I have no problem with Novus Ordo or any dogmatic teachings at Vatican II (where there any?).

But the Church can and does err in other areas and it is the duty of Catholics to speak out if they believe their pastors are in error.

How can the case be closed anyway? Where is the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary? I’d like to know. Have you seen the mess Russia is in? Do you know how much sin comes from there (check the Internet)? Did anyone actually convert in Russia? Can anyone seriously claim Russia is converted?

As for a “private revelation” you are right of course. We are not bound.
But a “private revelation” that saw two Popes make four pilgimages to Fatima, that had 70,000 witnesses to the miracle, that predicted so much of what happened during the 20th century. That converted so many people (myself included) to the Catholic faith. You can ignore it if you wish - the Popes didn’t.

The Catholic Church is in a very very bad way at the moment - I believe this was part of the Fatima message - “In Portugal the dogma of faith will always be preserved” - Which implies elsewhere it won’t be.

Look around - the Church is full of Catholics who don’t hold the dogma’s of faith. The Catholic schools aren’t even teaching them. Instead our children are being taught to respect and value other religions - this is a nonsense. No wonder our children grow up thinking the Catholic faith is no more important than any other religion and eventually don’t bother.

No - Fatima is not finished by a long way.

 

[John_19_59]

…furthermore…

so interesting comments on the Vatican interpretation can be found here.

members.iinet.net.au/~raphael/ratzinger.html

Basically Cardinal Ratzinger doesn’t believe in any private revelations. Case closed (for him - being of tutonic mind and all that).

Some people might be interested in what the Cardinal said about the Third Secret in 1984 in an interview for the “Jesus” magazine (where he stated he had read it).
It certainly doesn’t marry with his June 2000 “attempt at interpretration”.

In 1984 he said - “The dangers threatening the faith, the importance of the last times, and the fact that the prophecies contained in this Third Secret correspond to what Scripture announces.”

Well I don’t see “importance the of last times” mentioned in his latest attempted interpretation.

The “last times” in scripture concerns the anti-Christ, the persecution of the Church and apostasy.

How can you draw a line under that?

Something is not adding up. I believe something has been left out because it doesn’t fit with the “spirit of Vatican II”.

Sr Lucia has mentioned in the past that the Third Secret can be seen in the Book of Revelations chapters 8 and 13 which agrees with Cardinal Ratzingers 1984 comments.

Read those chapters!

 

[otm]

To begin with, Fatima (and Lourdes, and Knock, and any of the other approved appearances) are not magic. They are not going to do you any good if they cause such facination and focus on them that you lose sight of Our Lord.

The Pope has said that Russia was consecrated. Sister Lucia has repeatedly said that Russia was consecrated. Get over it. The group you are listening to are leading you away from the truth of Christ, as presented through His Church.

It ain’t about magic! It’s about faith, and the group that keeps stirring the pot about this has lost sight, pretty much, about what Faith is about, and what we are called to by Our Lord.

You need to quit worrying about Fatima, and start woorying about your own salvation. You need to quit reading about Fatima, and start reading the Gospels and Epistles. You need to focus on Mass, and learn more of how to worship God through the Mass. Fatima did not give you or me or anyone else a blueprint for life, or what is going on in the world.

 

[John_19_59]

Re: You need to quit worrying about Fatima, and start woorying about your own salvation. You need to quit reading about Fatima, and start reading the Gospels and Epistles. You need to focus on Mass, and learn more of how to worship God through the Mass. Fatima did not give you or me or anyone else a blueprint for life, or what is going on in the world.

Is that right? You seem to know a lot about me - (sigh).

I think you need to reflect on the fruits of the “spirit of Vatican II”.

The Church is in one great big mess.

You can ignore Fatima if you like but I don’t think that God wastes miracles myself - and that was a pretty big miracle.

Here’s something from The Acts of The Apostles to help you along.

In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.

Whether you like it or not prophecy and visions are a very important part of the Catholic faith - although perhaps not in keeping with the modernist mind-set in some parts of the Vatican.

And whether you like it or not - Fatima has been taken very seriously by the Popes since 1917.

Who said this?

“The appeal of the Lady of the message of Fatima is so deeply rooted in the Gospel and the whole of Tradition that the Church feels that the message imposes a commitment on her.”

Fatima confirms traditional Catholic dogma, something that does not appeal to many people in postions of power in the Church who are more interested in making “friends” with other religions rather than following their mission to convert them.

 

[Sir_Knight]

John, with all due respect, if you want to start quoting script, consider this … you said “*I am not bound to accept the interpretation offered by Rome (unless you can show me otherwise) *” – what about “I give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. What soever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loosen on earth shall be loosen in heaven.” … sounds to me like we ARE bound to accept the interpretation offered by Rome.

 

[John_19_59]

Sir Knight,

No I’m not - you need to be able to distinguish between Catholic Dogmatic Teaching - which I am bound to accept, and opinions of the Catholic hierachy which I am not bound to accept.

Cardinal Ratzinger said it was an “attempted interpretation”.

How am I bound to accept an “attempted interpretation” of a “private revelation” that I am “not bound to accept”.

???

Cardinal Ratzinger was being more that slightly disingenious with his “attempted interpretation”.

The Cardinal has also inexplicably changed his tune about Fatima since 1984.

 

[Sir_Knight]

John, you’re starting get into technicalities. Jesus established the church to guide His people and He chartered the Apostles and their successors with being our spiritual leaders. Let our leaders do the job that they have taken on and pray for them so that God guides their heart & soul so that they are better able to guide us.

With regards to the rest of your comments …

1. Russia is obviously not converted (unless Our Lady meant converted to capitalism - which I’m sure she didn’t). ** But it’s in a better state than it was than when it was under the Soviet empire and the Catholic faith was more surpressed than it is now so it’s moving in a positive direction.**
2. Sin is even more prevalent in the world than in 1917. This is defintely an understatement. What do you propose that the Church do about it other than encourage it’s members to pray – which, I believe, that it has always encouraged the faithful to do. You, yourself, said in another thread that when people refuse to listen, we are to shake the dust from our feet and move on. What is the Church suppose to do when abortions and other sinful acts are taking place by people who refuse to listen?
3. Man continues to offend God on an even greater scale. This is also an understatement. As with the previous item, what would you like the Catholic church to do when people refuse to listen?
4. The Immaculate Heart of Mary has not triumphed yet. No comment because the statement is to vague for me to offer an opinion on.
5. The Catholic Church is in a perilous state. In some parts of the world, this is true. In other parts of the world, it id not. Through out the history of the Catholic church, this has been the case a majority of the time.
6. Many Catholic schools teach plurality of religions and are afraid to teach the one true religion. The local Bishops need to be notified of this. Acceptance of other religions is the same as having “false gods” and Catholic schools need to be properly educating our children. Again, if you are aware of such happenings, the local bishop should be contacted and if he fails to act, the matter should be taken up the line.
7. Modernism has a firm grip amongst the Catholic hierarchy. I don’t know what you mean by this, so I can not comment.
8. Traditional Catholic dogma is being ignored in the quest for ecumenism. Again, I don’t know what you mean by this, so I can not comment.
9. The consecration of Russia has certainly not been carried out AS REQUESTED. Both the Pope and Sr. Lucia have gone on record as stating that the commandment to consecration Russia WAS carried out. Why do you doubt our earthly spiritual leader AND the woman who PERSONALLY received that third secret? I would think that their opinion should carry more weigth than that of ANYONE else on the planet!

 

[John_19_59]

John, you’re starting get into technicalities. Jesus established the church to guide His people and He chartered the Apostles and their successors with being our spiritual leaders. Let our leaders do the job that they have taken on and pray for them so that God guides their heart & soul so that they are better able to guide us.

I’m not being technical. The teaching of the Church is only guaranteed under certain circumstances. We are not oblidged to believe anything else.

Don’t fall into the trap of believing very thing the Vatican says must be true. History proves otherwise.

And again I repeat - I am not bound to accept an “attempted interpretation” of a “private revelation” of which which no one is bound to accept.

As for the argument that time and time again the Pope and Sr Lucia are on record as saying the consecration of Russia has been carried out - this is simply not true.

 

[Sir_Knight]

John_19_59:

And again I repeat - I am not bound to accept an “attempted interpretation” of a “private revelation” of which which no one is bound to accept.

John, you’re positioning yourself into a circular arguement.

The church does not REQUIRE anyone, INCLUDING the church iteself, to believe a private revelation. Therefore, if “nothing” (or very little) has been done, it is because they may have chosen not to accept the private revelation either fully or partially – which is their right.

So what is the problem?

 

[John_19_59]

Who said this?

“sounds to me like we ARE bound to accept the interpretation offered by Rome.”

It wasn’t a circular argument - but you didn’t understand.

You were telling me we were bound to accept something we are not bound to accept.

I merely pointed that out for you.

Anyway…

In 1984 Cardinal Ratzinger said he had read the Third Secret and that it related to “scripture” and “the last times”. He didn’t say it was done and dusted.

In 2000 he changed his tune.

Curious! (to say the least). Something isn’t right.

 

[Augustine]

John_19_59:

The Church is in one great big mess.

Yes, it is. Yet it’s not the first time it’s happened nor the worst we’ve seen. But it’s still around producing saints.

I beg you to not doubt Our Lord when He said that He Himself wouldn’t allow the evil one to destroy her. This is His Church, after all.

 

[Sir_Knight]

John_19_59:

It wasn’t a circular argument - but you didn’t understand

I guess not and I still don’t but that’s okay.

 

[_Joshua]

John_19_59:

Upfront - if it wasn’t for the fact that twenty five years ago someone told me about the events at Fatima I would not be a practising Catholic. I have a lot to be grateful for to God, Our Lady and Lucia.

But I must admit I have been increasingly puzzled by events over the last twenty years in regard to Fatima, and especially the last 4 years.

Why?

/John

John, like you I don’t think Fatima is over by a long shot, but I’ll play the wait and see game.
Sometimes prophecies don’t make sense until after the event, and all we can do is pray, go to Mass, receive, etc: and cling to the rock.
The Church is under, and has been since it’s formation great spiritual attack, but I trust Jesus, when He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

 

[otm]

John_19_59:

Is that right? You seem to know a lot about me - (sigh).

I know what you have told me. I don’t doubt your seriousness. But given some of your statements, you are putting a very small group’s opinions above the Church’s statements.

John_19_59:

I think you need to reflect on the fruits of the “spirit of Vatican II”.

The Church is in one great big mess.

I am well aware of some of the problems the Church suffers. However, your view is a bit myopic and narrow, as well as a bit on the negative side. Elements and areas in the Church are in a mess. Other areas, however, are doing quite well. Don’t presume the issues of the Church in America are the same as the issues of the Church in various parts of Europe, and don’t assume that issues affecting America and Europe are universal issues. They aren’t.

For example, world wide, vocations are up. Across the board in america and Europe, vocations are down; however, in certain areas they are up significantly.

Some parts of the Church are a big mess, but that, too, is changing.

John_19_59:

You can ignore Fatima if you like but I don’t think that God wastes miracles myself - and that was a pretty big miracle.

I made no suggestion that you “ignore” Fatima. I do suggest that you ignore the fringe element that fusses and fumes over issues of Fatima to the point that they give the appearance of raising Fatima over Divine Revelation. The primary purpose of Fatima, and Lourdes, and any and all of the other approved apparitions is to draw us closer to Christ and the Gospels. When people continue to focus on issues such as the dedication of Russia and insist that it hasn’t happened, after both the Pope who did the dedication, and the visionary who reported the issue in the first place both say that it has occured, then what we have is a self-anointed group who knows more than the two people most intimately acquainted with the issue, and I have a very deep and sincere problem with that. It starts down the path of magic, of controlling issues, and ultimately, controlling God, by certain acts, and that sounds in idolotry. It makes prayer into a magic formula: if we just do so and so, this result will automatically happen.

Please note that I do not deny any part of Mary’s message re: the dedication. In case you haven’t noticed, the Berlin wall has come down, Communism as a form of government has come to an end, religious freedom is much greater now than before, and conversions are occuring. You appearantly have a definition of what the word “conversion” means to you, and you are not satisfied that the results after the dedication meet your expectations. That is not proof that the conversion of Russia has not occured.

Again, I would suggest that you spend a little more time reading the Gospel and the Epistles, and a little less time reading the materials of the group you have obviously been reading. According to the statements of both the Pope and Sister Lucia, you are stuck on a non-issue. You might want to get un-stuck.

 

[John_19_59]

According to the statements of both the Pope and Sister Lucia, you are stuck on a non-issue.

Now you are making stuff up!

Point me to ONE statement by Pope John Paul II that says the consecration as requested has been carried out.

Sr Lucia claimed several times to various people in the 1980’s that the 1984 consecration was NOT sufficient - in spite of any computer printed letters Fr Fox might have to the contrary. Lucia’s sister said it was doubtful the letter came from Lucia.

It was Pope John Paul II who said that Fatima imposes a commitment on the Church.

It was Cardinal Ratzinger who claimed in 1984 that the Third secret concerned “the last times” and in 2000 said it didn’t. In 2000 he implied Lucia imagined it all.

Very strange!

 

[Sir_Knight]

John_19_59:

It was Cardinal Ratzinger who claimed in 1984 that the Third secret concerned “the last times” and in 2000 said it didn’t. In 2000 he implied Lucia imagined it all.

Look, I don’t claim to be an expert on this stuff but it could very well be the third revelation mentioned an event or events that were suppose to happen prior to the end of the centurty. Therefore, a person would have one view of it in 1984 and another view of it in 2000 when the century was over.

John_19_59:

As for the argument that time and time again the Pope and Sr Lucia are on record as saying the consecration of Russia has been carried out - this is simply not true.

While that may be your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, it is not shared by people in authority INCLUDING the Pope and Sr. Lucia – the two people that should know the best. Take note of the following …

• October 31, 1942 - Pope Pius XII consecrates the world to the Immaculate Heart.

• July 7, 1952 - Pope Pius XII consecrates the Russian people to the Immaculate Heart

• May 13, 1982 - Pope John Paul II invites the bishops of the world to join him in consecrating the world and with it Russia to the Immaculate Heart. Many do not receive the invitation in time for the Pope’s trip to Fatima, where he accomplishes the consecration. Sr. Lucia later says it did not fulfill the conditions.

• October 1983 - Pope John Paul II, at the Synod of Bishops, renews the 1982 Consecration

• March 25, 1984 - Pope John Paul II, “united with all the pastors of the Church in a particular bond whereby we constitute a body and a college,” consecrates “the whole world, especially the peoples for which by reason of their situation you have particular love and solicitude.” Both the Pope and Sr. Lucia initially seemed uncertain that the consecration has been fulfilled, but shortly thereafter Sr. Lucia tells the papal nuncio to Portugal that the Consecration is fulfilled.

• August 29, 1989 - Sr. Lucia affirms in correspondence that the consecration “has been accomplished” and that "God will keep His word."

… Source. What further proof do you need?

I think people are hung up on Sr. Lucia’s INITIAL uncertainity in March of 1984 and completely ignore her later statements where she AFFIRMS that the consecration “has been accomplished”.