Where should Catholics morally stand on the issue of Israel?

[Ridgerunner]

In the early days, in the 18th century, they were actually based on satellite photography - then they decided to use human surveyors.

The country was divided into grids, then sub-grids etc - it can be quite annoying when the ‘OS Map’ you want is mainly sea - and surveyed by human surveyors (it was quite a story - I watched a fascinating TV documentary on it - all those old surveyors, slowly but surely moving across the country, establishing their triangulation points etc and going on from there).

It’s periodically updated - more often in urban areas. Everywhere has its address, its post code (which defines individual address), its latitude and longitude - and its OS Grid Reference (which is very precise).

Give me a source saying that English property (not modern plats) is NOT described by address or “name” but by section fractions, metes and bounds or some combination thereof comparable to U.S. legal descriptions, whether individuallly surveyed or not, and I will concede that the Solicitor I spoke to committed malpractice.

I will further concede that the conveyance of English land which he prepared, was signed and returned for registration with the Building Society, was invalid.

 

[Kaninchen]

Give me a source saying that English property (not modern plats) is NOT described by address or “name” but by section fractions, metes and bounds or some combination thereof comparable to U.S. legal descriptions, whether individuallly surveyed or not, and I will concede that the Solicitor I spoke to committed malpractice.

I will further concede that the conveyance of English land which he prepared, was signed and returned for registration with the Building Society, was invalid.

I wasn’t actually arguing with you on that, I just gave you a reference for the Land Registry which is the Government agency which deals with land ownership records. Building Societies hold the title deeds of the property until you pay off your mortgage but they’re not the only record of ownership.

Then, thinking of your ‘stone walls and impenetrable hedgerows’, I remembered that there was, of course, the ‘Ordnance Survey’ which does map out every feature of the natural and built landscape.

I wasn’t being hostile in doing so, even if I did joke about the ‘aerial photography’ conjecture.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I wasn’t actually arguing with you on that, I just gave you a reference for the Land Registry which is the Government agency which deals with land ownership records. Building Societies hold the title deeds of the property until you pay off your mortgage but they’re not the only record of ownership.

Then, thinking of your ‘stone walls and impenetrable hedgerows’, I remembered that there was, of course, the ‘Ordnance Survey’ which does map out every feature of the natural and built landscape.

I wasn’t being hostile in doing so, even if I did joke about the ‘aerial photography’ conjecture.

I wasn’t being hostile either. My only source of information was the English Solicitor. It came as a surprise to me at the time (probably shouldn’t have) when he told me the things he told me.

Totally off topic, but in talking to him I asked whether the owners’ interest was a “tenancy by the entirety”, which it would have been here. That’s a very old form of ownership taken from the English Common Law, limited to married couples. “Oh” he said “I remember reading that it still exists in the States, but it doesn’t here any longer.” It made me wonder how many other things in our law (in Common Law states, which not all are and in the Federal system), adopted from England, are no longer the law there and only remain in existence here or in other English-speaking countries.

But to get back to the topic, at least a little, I would be interested to know what kind of “evidence of title” existed in Israel right before Israel was established. It’s hard for me to believe it was very good. As I mentioned previously, I have been told by Mexicans that in at least some places in Mexico, ownership is just “traditional”, and depends on the word of the previous owner and the neighbors. I have also been told that land ownership is uncertain and insecure because of it.

 

[Al_Masetti]

One of the issues in third world (or fourth world) countries is the absence of clear titles to land.

So what happens is that if you own some land and need the money to live on, you may not be able to sell the land.

OR, the government will “expropriate” your land and evict you.

OR, some wealthy person will send in a personal army to evict people from the land.

It is difficult for poor people to advance if their property gets taken from them without accountability or due process.

By whatever “legal mechanism”, in the United States, there was legal title to land available from the very beginning. Which I suspect is the main reason why the United States has been so prosperous for so long … there has always been a legal basis for wealth accumulation and wealth creation.

If someone had or has title to land, they can build on it without fear of unreasonable seizure.

[Of course, some of that went away with the recent Kelo decision, in which eminent domain was used to take someone’s property to give to someone else (rather than for some public purpose)… but that battle is still on-going.]

 

[Ridgerunner]

I remember reading that when the U.S. acquired the Louisiana Purchase lands, special tribunals were set up to investigate and, presumably to honor, old French and Spanish titles. Some, indeed, were honored. I know, for example, that some of the really ancient French families in St. Louis still own a lot of the downtown area as a consequence. Many claims weren’t honored, the biggest reasons being uncertainty as to where the land actually was, the “officialness” of the grants and the chain of title itself.

Part of the land I own was claimed, in the 1850s, to be part of an old Spanish grant, but it was ruled against in the tribunal and held to be of no validity. I really do wonder whether, if all the descendants of all the Palestinians who were supposedly “expropriated” in Israel came into some tribunal or other, they could, with any degree of certitude, prove what they once owned. I’m not even sure the people themselves could be identified with certainty. I wonder how many competing claims there would be to the most valuable parts of Israel if the Muslims conquered the country and evicted the Jews. I wonder too, how many Arab Israelis would also be subjected to those claims. Perhaps this is too cynical about Middle East ways, but one suspects, without really knowing, that Iranian Mullahs would somehow be “proved” the rightful owners of the shopping malls and high rises. Perhaps some Hamas and Hezbollah leaders would get an orchard here and there. The folks in Fatah would probably not survive the “title litigation”.

Maybe somebody has good information concerning Israeli titles, but I have never seen anything that persuaded me that particular Palestinian claims to particular properties could reasonably be demonstrated.

 

[Muzhik]

I really do wonder whether, if all the descendants of all the Palestinians who were supposedly “expropriated” in Israel came into some tribunal or other, they could, with any degree of certitude, prove what they once owned. I’m not even sure the people themselves could be identified with certainty.

This did happen by the UN after the end of War of Independence in the period of 1949 to 1952. This is where the rules regarding who is and is not a Palestinian refugee and the residency rules were made. The situation was complicated by the actions of the leaders of the refugee camps, who threatened to kill anyone who returned to Israel (and their family) as traitors to the Arab cause.

I wonder how many competing claims there would be to the most valuable parts of Israel if the Muslims conquered the country and evicted the Jews. I wonder too, how many Arab Israelis would also be subjected to those claims. Perhaps this is too cynical about Middle East ways, but one suspects, without really knowing, that Iranian Mullahs would somehow be “proved” the rightful owners of the shopping malls and high rises. Perhaps some Hamas and Hezbollah leaders would get an orchard here and there. The folks in Fatah would probably not survive the “title litigation”.

If Israel were taken over and turned into a Muslim nation, the entire “title” issue would be moot. Any titles held by Jews would be null and void, since a non-Muslim cannot own property in a Muslim country. This would affect a great number of the Arab Israelis, since many of them are Christian and so would also be forbidden to own property.

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[vern_humphrey]

I remember reading that when the U.S. acquired the Louisiana Purchase lands, special tribunals were set up to investigate and, presumably to honor, old French and Spanish titles. Some, indeed, were honored. I know, for example, that some of the really ancient French families in St. Louis still own a lot of the downtown area as a consequence. Many claims weren’t honored, the biggest reasons being uncertainty as to where the land actually was, the “officialness” of the grants and the chain of title itself.

Part of the land I own was claimed, in the 1850s, to be part of an old Spanish grant, but it was ruled against in the tribunal and held to be of no validity. I really do wonder whether, if all the descendants of all the Palestinians who were supposedly “expropriated” in Israel came into some tribunal or other, they could, with any degree of certitude, prove what they once owned. I’m not even sure the people themselves could be identified with certainty. I wonder how many competing claims there would be to the most valuable parts of Israel if the Muslims conquered the country and evicted the Jews. I wonder too, how many Arab Israelis would also be subjected to those claims. Perhaps this is too cynical about Middle East ways, but one suspects, without really knowing, that Iranian Mullahs would somehow be “proved” the rightful owners of the shopping malls and high rises. Perhaps some Hamas and Hezbollah leaders would get an orchard here and there. The folks in Fatah would probably not survive the “title litigation”.

Maybe somebody has good information concerning Israeli titles, but I have never seen anything that persuaded me that particular Palestinian claims to particular properties could reasonably be demonstrated.

Let me point out that the courts with which the titles were lodged are no longer in existance. And their records have not been preserved.

Many titles can be proved only by possession of deeds and so on – often based on landmarks that no longer exist.

It is the duty of government to maintain both records and landmarks, and Israel is now the government in that area. I recommend reading books by Abuna Elias Chacour (who is a Melkite Catholic Priest) about the situation – he had a decades long struggle to maintain church property, and when he built a school, he was forbidden and told “that land is designated for agriculture.”

 

[jmcrae]

First point: Are you telling me Israel chased Jews who were already in Israel off their land and replaced them with European Jews? I think I would want to see some proof of that from a reliable source.

They chased all Palestinians - Jew, Muslim, Christian, or whatever - all the “brown-skins” - out, and replaced them with the dispossessed European Jews, yes.

Second point: Are you saying the European Jews were not allowed to stay in Europe?

Sure, of course they were - but there was still the problem of not fitting in with the local culture because of their peculiar customs (Saturday sabbath, etc.), and the proposed solution was to create the State of Israel, so that they could be segregated from the “normal” population.

Of course, this was back when Christianity was considered normative - in today’s secular society, it hardly matters which day of the week (if any) you take off from work, because your office or workplace is on the go 24/7, anyway - no matter when you want to put in your 40 hours, there will always be someone there to let you in, and someone to tell you what to do.

Actually, my understanding of history is that back during the Ottoman era, European governments, particularly the British, leaned on the Ottomans to allow Jews to buy land in Israel. But they still had to buy it. After WWII, when the Brits were trying to stay cozy with the Arabs, they actively discouraged Jewish settlement in Israel. That’s the history of it.

But who were they buying the land from? Not from the people who were actually living on it, for sure - those people lost everything.

Also on second point: Do you truly believe those European Jews did not want to go to Israel by were “exiled” there by Europeans? You don’t say it, but it seems you are suggesting it.

I think that people honestly thought it would be better for the Jews to have their own country, away somewhere out of sight, where they could practice their religion without bothering anyone else. I think a lot of people were under the impression that the Palestinians were some kind of primitive nomads who could easily just pick up stakes and go live somewhere else - the idea of families living in the same house for 500 years or a thousand years, or even longer, just didn’t occur to anyone.

 

[Sheeniac]

Sorry, but when we hear of Jews shooting at kids, then later learn it’s because there are shooting terrorists surrounding themselves with children, or see terrorists jump out of ambulances, I know where my sympathies are.

When suicide bombers go into Israel to kill as many civilians as possible, I can have zero sympathy for the terrorists.

So by default, I support Israel. So much in fact, that I consider myself to be a Zionist.

Nations have been created and carved up over history. Our own country was “stolen” from the Indians/Native Americans. Mexico wants CA “back”. History and boundaries are not pretty. But once terrorism comes into play, forget it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

They chased all Palestinians - Jew, Muslim, Christian, or whatever - all the “brown-skins” - out, and replaced them with the dispossessed European Jews, yes.
I think I would prefer to see some reputable source that Jews chased Jews out. Some must have come back or something, if so, because “original Jews” are still there. Nor were all Palestinians “brown skins” anymore than all European Jews were “white skins”. Palestinians vary a great deal, as to Jews. Many “Original Jews” were blue-eyed and fair. I don’t know where you got this.

Sure, of course they were - but there was still the problem of not fitting in with the local culture because of their peculiar customs (Saturday sabbath, etc.), and the proposed solution was to create the State of Israel, so that they could be segregated from the “normal” population. Yet, there are still Jews in Europe. Which countries evicted them, and what is your authority for that proposition. I will grant that a number of Islamic countries evicted Jews. I’m talking about European countries after WWII. In any event, all of those “evicted” Jews could have fared better in the U.S. than in Israel initially, and that’s for certain.

But who were they buying the land from? Not from the people who were actually living on it, for sure - those people lost everything. But there are still Arab Muslims in Israel; Israeli citizens. If the Turks sold land on which people lived, that was hardly the Jews’ fault. But the reality is that the Turks would not allow Jews to buy the best land; only land they did not deem worth much. Granted, that would have included a lot of Israel, which had been reduced from a plentiful land to a desert by Islamic rule for centuries. Israelis have since restored it to productivity.

I think that people honestly thought it would be better for the Jews to have their own country, away somewhere out of sight, where they could practice their religion without bothering anyone else. **This is just nonsense. What about Jewish Supreme Court Justices, Senators and Representatives, in the U.S. Jews are found in all walks of life in the U.S. and nobody tries to put them “out of sight”. **I think a lot of people were under the impression that the Palestinians were some kind of primitive nomads who could easily just pick up stakes and go live somewhere else - the idea of families living in the same house for 500 years or a thousand years, or even longer, just didn’t occur to anyone. They left, believing Arab leaders’ promises that they would make Israel “Judenrein” so they would inherit the whole. When it didn’t pan out, Arab leaders kept them in camps. Jews didn’t. Had they not left, they would be Israeli citizens today, as are the Arabs who didn’t leave.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Sorry, but when we hear of Jews shooting at kids, then later learn it’s because there are shooting terrorists surrounding themselves with children, or see terrorists jump out of ambulances, I know where my sympathies are.

When suicide bombers go into Israel to kill as many civilians as possible, I can have zero sympathy for the terrorists.

So by default, I support Israel. So much in fact, that I consider myself to be a Zionist.

Nations have been created and carved up over history. Our own country was “stolen” from the Indians/Native Americans. Mexico wants CA “back”. History and boundaries are not pretty. But once terrorism comes into play, forget it.

Don’t also forget that Islamic armies invaded Spain in AD 711 and went all the way up into France (Battle of Tours, Charles Martel and etc) and were not evicted until AD 1492. The Moors then went from their coastal North African bases and attacked Spanish, French and Italian coastal towns and preyed on ships in the Mediterranean (the Corsairs) until the early 1800’s. The first war that the United States fought as a newly independent country was against Tripoli and the pirates of the region … in 1805 … when the U.S. Marine Corps went into battle. From 1825 or so, the French, Spanish, British and Italians stopped the raiding and piracy by just occupying North Africa. After WW2, North Africa was given its independence and now they are resuming their attacks on the West, although in different ways.

And, now, in addition to everything else, they want Spain back.

 

[scapularkid8]

And, now, in addition to everything else, they want Spain back.

El Reino Católico de España NINGUNA ser parte del Islám orta vez!!!