Where should I request to be baptised?

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Josie_in_the_East

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Hi everyone, I am new here and new to Christianity.

I am becoming more and more certain that I would like to baptised into the faith (still have a few things to work on).
However I have never understood Western Christian theology and so it is through reading ‘Eastern Christian’ sources that I have been feeling led to accept Christianity.

Yet I live in a town in England where access to an Eastern Christian church is not available. And to further complicate matters I don’t drive and have 2 small children so travelling too far via public transport is difficult.

About a month ago We (the kids & I) started attending our local Roman Catholic Church. We have been welcomed with open arms and have quickly made friends there. However my theology and personal (at home) practice of the faith have remained Eastern. I am trying to follow an Eastern Catholic fasting schedule and have an Eastern Orthodox prayer book and bible.

My question is if I do (hopefully) decide to be baptised into the faith. Should I travel the 2 1/2 hours to London to be baptised into an Eastern Catholic Church (if they allow this) knowing that I would only ever attend their services very infrequently. Or is it valid for me (and my children) to be baptised Roman Catholic even though I intend on remaining Eastern in my theological understanding and private practice of the faith?
 
Whether you’re baptized according to an Eastern Catholic or a Roman Catholic Rite makes no difference, either way you will die to the world and be reborn in Christ.

There are differences however, and they are twofold:
  1. Most Eastern Catholics administer baptism, plus Chrismation (Confirmation), plus the Eucharist all together at once. Whereas the Roman Catholic Rites administer baptism first, then usually the Eucharist later, then Confirmation after that. So that’s one thing.
  2. The second thing is whatever Church you are baptized or confirmed into, that is the Church to whom you belong to canonically. Meaning if you are baptized in the Roman Church, you are bound by Roman Church Law. If you are baptized in an Eastern Church, you are obligated to follow Eastern canons.
You can switch rites later on, or like me be bi-ritual. Meaning I am canonically subject to Roman law, but I also try to follow and live by Byzantine Ukrainian law.

Always remember too that the Catholic Church is not just one particular Church. The Catholic Church is a communion of 24 Churches - the Latin/Roman/Western Church which follow various forms of Latin or Roman Rites, and the 23 Eastern Catholic Churches which follow various forms of the Byzantine/Constantinopolitan, Alexandrian, Antiochian/West Syrian, Armenian, and Chaldean/East Syrian Rites.
 
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Thank you for your reply Spyridon. Can ask what bi-ritual means? And how does a lay person become bi-ritual?
Have you found this a comfortable fit for your own spiritual practice?
 
Bi-ritual is a term usually(and perhaps more accurately) applied to clergy who have faculties to celebrate both in the Roman and in one of the Eastern Churches.

I apply it to myself meaning I am dual ritual, I belong canonically to the Roman Church, but I identify spiritually more with the Ukrainian Church.

A lay person becomes bi-ritual simply by learning and living the rites and devotions of both the Occident and the Orient.

And yes I have found this a very comfortable fit. I see no contradiction or hostility between the Roman and Byzantine Rites, they are both ancient Apostolical expressions of the Deposit of Faith.

St. John the Apostle and Theologian, pray for us!
Sts. Andrew and Peter, pray for us!
St. Blessed Augustine, pray for us!
St. Gregory the Theologian, pray for us!
St. Pope Gregory the Great, pray for us!
St. Gregory the Thaumaturge, pray for us!
St. Pope Clement of Rome, pray for us!
St. Aaron the Illustrious, pray for us!
St. Pope Sylvester, pray for us!
St. Basil the Great, pray for us!
St. Ambrose of Milan, pray for us!
St. John Chrysostom, pray for us!
St. Jerome of Stridon, pray for us!
St. Nicholas the Thaumaturge of Myra, pray for us!
St. Hildegard of Bingen, pray for us!
St. Spyridon the Thaumaturge, pray for us!
St. Bonaventure, pray for us!
St. Athanasius the Great, pray for us!
St. Abba Anthony the Great, pray for us!
St. Benedict of Nursia, pray for us!
St. Gregory of Nyssa, pray for us!
St. Isidore of Seville, pray for us!
St. Ephrem the Syrian, pray for us!
St. Hilary of Poitiers, pray for us!
St. Gregory of Narek, pray for us!
St. Pope Leo the Great, pray for us!
St. Photius the Great, pray for us!
St. Bernard of Clairveaux, pray for us!
St. Symeon the New Theologian, pray for us!
St. Anselm of Canterbury, pray for us!
St. Mark of Ephesus, pray for us!
St. Pope Nicholas the Great, pray for us!
St. Thomas Aquinas, pray for us!
St. Gregory Palamas, pray for us!
St. Francis of Assisi, pray for us!
St. Seraphim of Sarov, pray for us!
St. John of Kronstadt, pray for us!
St. Therese of Lisieux, pray for us!
St. John of San Francisco and Shanghai, pray for us!
St. Padre Pio, pray for us!
St. Paisios of the Holy Mount, pray for us!
St. Pope John Paul the Great, pray for us!

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us!
Holy Mary, thou ever-Virgin Theotokos, pray for us!

Sts. Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Jehudiel, Selaphiel, and Barachiel, thou Archangels, pray for us!

O God, through the prayers of the most holy Theotokos, and all the Angels and Saints, have mercy on us!
 
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I transferred rites from Roman to Eastern Catholic. There is a huge difference
 
Thank you Spyridon that sounds like how I would practice if I do go the RC route. Do you think you will ever officially change rites or would you regularly attend an Eastern Catholic church if that option were open to you?
 
For me, I missed the incense, the sense of entering a Holy place during mass, a quiet place for prayer, the priest who is a shepherd and knows your name, homilies that expand the readings from that day (not a story about what movie is popular or what the priest’s dog is up to), people who greet you lovingly and stay after mass instead of ignoring you and vanishing when the priest says the mass has ended. Deeper studies about the saints you can participate in a class with other parishioners and the priest or deacon instead of on your own where your questions are not answered. Communion with only the priest or deacon distributing. Recognizing the traditional church calendar, like Pentacost (it is not ordinary time).

My family had left the church when everything changed and I couldnt get used to the changes when I went back as an adult. But Eastern Catholics have better retained traditions. Not perfect but better. Only heaven will be perfect.
 
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Several of the Eastern churches base the Theology and Philosophy on Plato’s language while the Western (Latin) go back to Aristotle and the way he expressed himself. You have to remember that the Enlightenment was mainly in the Western part of Europe.

What I love about the Catholic Church is that all fit into it and everyone finds their place in it weather they like traditional chant, incense or music that is 100 years old.

The parishes are very different. Mine had the Roman Eucharistic prayer and Greek and Latin for Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Our Father, Sanctus and Agnus Dei during midnight Christmas mass. Readings were in several languages as well as when we sang “Silent Night”. Incense as we had lots of altar servers. My parish has about minimum 60-70 different nationalities and somewhere between 5-15 rites is my guess. The charismatic prayer group fit in and the parishoners recognise when someone new comes to mass.
 
Oh yeah that is the canon regarding adult baptism.

I was talking about infant baptism, which obviously doesn’t apply here 🙂
 
Can. 111 §2. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another ritual Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Can. 112 §2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church.

If you want your children and yourself to officially be Eastern Catholics, you would need to be baptized in an Eastern catholic Church. You could still attend a Latin parish, but you would be bound to observe the Eastern discipline of fast and abstinence, and to attend Mass on the Holy Days for the Eastern Church.
 
Thank you very much for all the replies.

I think I will try to make contact with the Eastern Catholic Church in London and explain my situation and ask if I may be baptised there and figure out if that’s an option for us. I think that would be my preference.
If not I will likely enrol on the next RCIA at the Latin Church we currently attend.

Please pray for me that God shows me the right way and makes it easy for us.
 
Arkansan said:
You could still attend a Latin parish, but you would be bound to observe the Eastern discipline of fast and abstinence, and to attend Mass on the Holy Days for the Eastern Church
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And therein lies the rub, Eastern feast days do not coincide with Western days. We still go to liturgy mid-week on the actual day of the feast not the following Sunday.
 
Which Eastern Catholic Church in London are you going to contact ?

There are several EC Churches there - Melkite , Belarusian, Ukrainian , Maronite
 
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If you intend to live in accordance with the Eastern Rite then you should NOT ask to be baptize/confirmed in the Roman Rite. I’d recommend going to the Eastern Rite and ask
to go through their RCIA Classes. Once you are confirmed you may always attend the
Roman Rite IF necessary to fulfill your Sunday obligation, however, by being baptized/
confirmed in the Eastern Rite you will be faithful to how you INTEND to live your life.
I was baptized/confirmed in the Roman Rite simply because I was born to parents
belonging to the Roman Rite and therefore now find myself asking for permission to
transfer rites since I have been worshiping in the Eastern Rite tradition the past 6 years
and feel that in order to remain faithful to where my heart is I should transfer.
 
Casilda said:
And therein lies the rub, Eastern feast days do not coincide with Western days.
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Yes, that’s what I was getting at. She’d be obliged (in practice) to attend daily Mass in the Latin rite on Eastern holy days. Not a major issue, but it’d require independently knowing when they are, and perhaps having to deal with inconvenient scheduling.
We still go to liturgy mid-week on the actual day of the feast not the following Sunday.
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Isn’t that the case in both?
 
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Arkansan said:
…
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A change was made to the canon law (Latin) CIC via De Concordia Inter Codices, May 31, 2016:

Art. 1. CIC Canon 111 the entirety of the text is substituted, in which is included a new paragraph and the changes to some terms:

§ 1. Through the reception of baptism, the child of parents who belong to the Latin Church is enrolled in it, or, if one or the other does not belong to it, both parents have chosen by mutual agreement to have the offspring baptized in the Latin Church. If there is no mutual agreement, however, the child is enrolled in the Church sui iuris to which the father belongs.

§ 2. If only one of the parents be catholic, the baptized is ascribed to the Church to which the catholic parent pertains.

§ 3. Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely choose to be baptized in the Latin Church or in another Church sui iuris; in that case, the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Art. 2. CIC Canon 112 the entirety of the text is substituted, in which is included a new paragraph and the changes to some terms:

§1. After the reception of baptism, the following are enrolled in another Church sui iuris:

1° a person who has obtained permission from the Apostolic See;

2° a spouse who, at the time of or during marriage, has declared that he or she is transferring to the Church sui iuris of the other spouse; when the marriage has ended, however, the person can freely return to the Latin Church;

3° before the completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 as well as, in a mixed marriage, the children of the Catholic party who has legitimately transferred to another Church sui iuris; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they can return to the Latin Church.

§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church

§3. All those transfers to another Church sui iuris have force from the moment of the declaration of the fact before the local Ordinary of the Church or the proper pastor or priest by delegation and two witnesses, unless a rescript of the Apostolic See provides otherwise; and [this is to be] noted in the baptismal register.

 
Thank you for this.

Though I don’t think it changes anything I said.
 
Arkansan said:
Thank you for this.

Though I don’t think it changes anything I said.
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You are welcome. Nothing changed from what you said. They wanted to make CIC look like CCEO so there would be no confusion.
 
Josie_in_the_East said:
Hi everyone, I am new here and new to Christianity.

I am becoming more and more certain that I would like to baptised into the faith (still have a few things to work on).
However I have never understood Western Christian theology and so it is through reading ‘Eastern Christian’ sources that I have been feeling led to accept Christianity.

Yet I live in a town in England where access to an Eastern Christian church is not available. And to further complicate matters I don’t drive and have 2 small children so travelling too far via public transport is difficult.

About a month ago We (the kids & I) started attending our local Roman Catholic Church. We have been welcomed with open arms and have quickly made friends there. However my theology and personal (at home) practice of the faith have remained Eastern. I am trying to follow an Eastern Catholic fasting schedule and have an Eastern Orthodox prayer book and bible.

My question is if I do (hopefully) decide to be baptised into the faith. Should I travel the 2 1/2 hours to London to be baptised into an Eastern Catholic Church (if they allow this) knowing that I would only ever attend their services very infrequently. Or is it valid for me (and my children) to be baptised Roman Catholic even though I intend on remaining Eastern in my theological understanding and private practice of the faith?
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When an adult is baptized by the Catholic Church there is the option to choose the ritual church of ascription (sui iuris Church) but you need to say it. This will be noted on the baptismal certificate. The bishops, priests, and deacons of the Latin Catholic Church can baptize ordinarily, and the bishops, priests, but not the deacons of the eastern Catholic churches can baptize ordinarily, but the deacon extraordinarily. There will be preparation required for baptism so you should contact Catholic clergy about it. It is possible to be baptized by a Latin priest, for example, and he can obtain the faculties to confirm from the ordinary of the eastern Catholic church you want to be ascribed to.

Here are some eastern Catholic parishes for London that you could contact:

 
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