Where's the Love?

[Raider_Red]

I want to start off by saying that I’m new to this forum and wanted to put this out there, knowing I will probably need to read something like this in the near future myself.

While I see so many good and encouraging discussions going on, I am discouraged by the underlying tones of so many of the responses when someone disagrees with another’s stance. I’m not by any means saying there isn’t a right and wrong, but I think it would do us all some good to be reminded that none of us individually have arrived. I have grown up in the Protestant world for most of my life and have been amidst what seemed to be constant disagreement with everyone thinking they were right and everyone else was wrong (I say this not as a stab, but I have friends a family of many different denominations and we all had our hot buttons in many areas that I’m sure a lot of people can relate to). I know we all for the sake of self-preservation want to feel we are right and defend our position, especially when we feel it’s threatened (or maybe it’s just me who does that), but we can do it in a loving way or non-loving way. I write this after only yesterday losing my temper with my dad over a theological discussion involving differing opinions. I know how easy it is to get frustrated with someone when they seem to just not get what seems so plain to us but that’s the way it goes sometimes. By no means should we be relativist and take that approach but we should listen to others and engage, learning from those who think differently and even disagreeing. Me and my wife are in the process of joining the Catholic Church and a big part of it had to do with many being patient with us and taking the time to love us despite the fact we disagreed with them completely. Had things been confrontational or things weren’t done out of love, I don’t know if we would have honestly taken the time to dig through and pray through things that were so foreign to us for most of our lives. Love will tear down walls while the lack of love with continue building them up higher and higher. I will close by saying that this forum can be used for so much good and I’m so thankful for it, but we, who profess Christ as our Lord, have the ability to point people away from the love of Christ in action while attempting to point them to Christ in doctrine.

I would love to hear from anyone who would like to add to what I wrote or correct me if they feel I have misspoke.

 

[Prague]

Great post, and I think you have found the “Love”! God Bless you for this reminder to all of us.

 

[SteveLohr]

I am discouraged by the underlying tones of so many of the responses when someone disagrees with another’s stance. I’m not by any means saying there isn’t a right and wrong, but I think it would do us all some good to be reminded that none of us individually have arrived. …

I would love to hear from anyone who would like to add to what I wrote or correct me if they feel I have misspoke.

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,
for whoever is not against us is for us.
I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. (Mark 9:38-40)

My understanding of this passage is that we are to let differences in believers divide us, unless such differences rise to the level of a disbelief in the core tennants of Christianity.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I want to start off by saying that I’m new to this forum and wanted to put this out there, knowing I will probably need to read something like this in the near future myself.

While I see so many good and encouraging discussions going on, I am discouraged by the underlying tones of so many of the responses when someone disagrees with another’s stance. I’m not by any means saying there isn’t a right and wrong, but I think it would do us all some good to be reminded that none of us individually have arrived. I have grown up in the Protestant world for most of my life and have been amidst what seemed to be constant disagreement with everyone thinking they were right and everyone else was wrong (I say this not as a stab, but I have friends a family of many different denominations and we all had our hot buttons in many areas that I’m sure a lot of people can relate to). I know we all for the sake of self-preservation want to feel we are right and defend our position, especially when we feel it’s threatened (or maybe it’s just me who does that), but we can do it in a loving way or non-loving way. I write this after only yesterday losing my temper with my dad over a theological discussion involving differing opinions. I know how easy it is to get frustrated with someone when they seem to just not get what seems so plain to us but that’s the way it goes sometimes. By no means should we be relativist and take that approach but we should listen to others and engage, learning from those who think differently and even disagreeing. Me and my wife are in the process of joining the Catholic Church and a big part of it had to do with many being patient with us and taking the time to love us despite the fact we disagreed with them completely. Had things been confrontational or things weren’t done out of love, I don’t know if we would have honestly taken the time to dig through and pray through things that were so foreign to us for most of our lives. Love will tear down walls while the lack of love with continue building them up higher and higher. I will close by saying that this forum can be used for so much good and I’m so thankful for it, but we, who profess Christ as our Lord, have the ability to point people away from the love of Christ in action while attempting to point them to Christ in doctrine.

I would love to hear from anyone who would like to add to what I wrote or correct me if they feel I have misspoke.

There are four possible replies:​

• kicking people’s convictions to bits is love, “tough love” (excuse 1 for being a loveless jerk)
• love is sentimental claptrap that real men don’t bother with; the arguments are largely testosterone-fuelled - (excuse 2 for being a loveless jerk)
• people are loveless, and show it by treating others as they would hate to be treated themselves
• Other things are far more important, like belonging to the “right” Christian sect or holding exactly the right beliefs.

If you want love, there is far more real “Christian” love among non-Christians - Christians have a long & hideous, & living, record of hate for one another. That is a fact, which only a liar or an apologist could possibly deny. Non-Christians are with few exceptions the only people whose brains & consciences have not been rotted by believing the competing propagandas of the various Churches.
I think it’s very unwise to become Catholic - but you must do what you think right. I hope for your sake that you don’t find you’ve made a terrible mistake, as I did.

 

[Raider_Red]

There are four possible replies:​

• kicking people’s convictions to bits is love, “tough love” (excuse 1 for being a loveless jerk)
• love is sentimental claptrap that real men don’t bother with; the arguments are largely testosterone-fuelled - (excuse 2 for being a loveless jerk)
• people are loveless, and show it by treating others as they would hate to be treated themselves
• Other things are far more important, like belonging to the “right” Christian sect or holding exactly the right beliefs.

If you want love, there is far more real “Christian” love among non-Christians - Christians have a long & hideous, & living, record of hate for one another. That is a fact, which only a liar or an apologist could possibly deny. Non-Christians are with few exceptions the only people whose brains & consciences have not been rotted by believing the competing propagandas of the various Churches.
I think it’s very unwise to become Catholic - but you must do what you think right. I hope for your sake that you don’t find you’ve made a terrible mistake, as I did.

I definitely think you are right on your four points, but I do think there are some other reasons why people come off as “loveless jerks”. Some are loveless but others, like myself, just get caught up in something they’re passionate about and lose sight of what’s really important and come across as loveless. I would say that I’m very much full of love for people from all different walks of life, but in my humanness have failed to display that at times and have given people the wrong perception before. I hope I never do that again but realize there is a good chance I will. Also, I would be curious as to the reason or reasons you would say it’s unwise for me to become Catholic and also what terrible mistake you made that you are trying to help me avoid. If you would just give me a little more clarity on what you are talking about.

 

[Bookworm88]

While I see so many good and encouraging discussions going on, I am discouraged by the underlying tones of so many of the responses when someone disagrees with another’s stance.

I would encourage you to not read too much into people’s underlying tones. I think the very nature of forum discussions makes it hard to actually read the underlying tones. For example, I have had a Catholic person refer to me as ignorant here on the forum. I could look at that as an underlying tone of rudeness, but I choose not to, since I understand he was just refering to my lack of knowledge about the Catholic position. Also, some of the people here have interacted long enough that they may be comfortable using more direct language or sarcasm with each other than they would with new people, but new people reading it may mistakenly assign an “underlying tone” to the exchange.

 

[Reuben_J]

Had things been confrontational or things weren’t done out of love, I don’t know if we would have honestly taken the time to dig through and pray through things that were so foreign to us for most of our lives. Love will tear down walls while the lack of love with continue building them up higher and higher. I will close by saying that this forum can be used for so much good and I’m so thankful for it, but we, who profess Christ as our Lord, have the ability to point people away from the love of Christ in action while attempting to point them to Christ in doctrine.

I would love to hear from anyone who would like to add to what I wrote or correct me if they feel I have misspoke.

One of the few realities of Christian life that I found out a long time ago was that love is not human nature. Basically human is human. Love IS God’s nature; God is love.

I was having a hard spell at one time and wish to speak to a brother in the faith. I told him that even though things did not go as I wanted, I reiterated that I still love God and that my love for Him would never die.

What he told me caught me by surprise and that I remember until this day. He said, “You may say you love God. But is that really love? Or is that what you think you want to do?”

He went on to explain about the love of God as he quoted scripture to back him up. In short, God’s love is infinite. And he asked whether I can love God as He loves.

Even though we want to love God in reality we cannot love Him according to how He loves. We fail in some ways, sometimes. How unfair and how one sided is this love affair. Even when we want to love God we need His grace and help so that we can love Him.

Loving God is often expressed in how we love our fellow humans. We cannot love God whom we cannot see if we unable to love our brothers and sisters whom we can see.

The question you pose in this thread is the core objective that a Christian will have to grapple throughout his Christian’s life. And he/she will do that and will get none the better until the day he/she dies. We can only improve in the way and how we love.

I am glad to be in this forum because I meet and see many Christians who internalize the love of God much better than I am. They are great sources of encouragement and inspiration to me for my own lack of love. Sometimes this makes the difference as compared to other type of forums.

I am glad you have chosen the Catholic Church. You will be going to meet lots of imperfect and loveless people there but don’t let that discourage you. We are all on a journey. Look at them with compassion because they need all the more the love of God to make them able to love like He does; and take those Catholics whom you admire to be your inspiration and encouragement as you begin this journey.

God bless you.

 

[The_Proselyte]

Great post! I do believe a lot of us just aren’t adept at 1) thinking critically, 2) challeging our own preconceptions, and 3) arguing our points without disrespecting the other person. I also find that we all have issues actually reading the other person’s post or truly listening to what the person is saying before we react. But I believe Gandhi said it best, “Christianity is a great religion; too bad that it has never been tried.”

 

[JAW642]

I want to start off by saying that I’m new to this forum and wanted to put this out there, knowing I will probably need to read something like this in the near future myself.

While I see so many good and encouraging discussions going on, I am discouraged by the underlying tones of so many of the responses when someone disagrees with another’s stance. I’m not by any means saying there isn’t a right and wrong, but I think it would do us all some good to be reminded that none of us individually have arrived. I have grown up in the Protestant world for most of my life and have been amidst what seemed to be constant disagreement with everyone thinking they were right and everyone else was wrong (I say this not as a stab, but I have friends a family of many different denominations and we all had our hot buttons in many areas that I’m sure a lot of people can relate to). I know we all for the sake of self-preservation want to feel we are right and defend our position, especially when we feel it’s threatened (or maybe it’s just me who does that), but we can do it in a loving way or non-loving way. I write this after only yesterday losing my temper with my dad over a theological discussion involving differing opinions. I know how easy it is to get frustrated with someone when they seem to just not get what seems so plain to us but that’s the way it goes sometimes. By no means should we be relativist and take that approach but we should listen to others and engage, learning from those who think differently and even disagreeing. Me and my wife are in the process of joining the Catholic Church and a big part of it had to do with many being patient with us and taking the time to love us despite the fact we disagreed with them completely. Had things been confrontational or things weren’t done out of love, I don’t know if we would have honestly taken the time to dig through and pray through things that were so foreign to us for most of our lives. Love will tear down walls while the lack of love with continue building them up higher and higher. I will close by saying that this forum can be used for so much good and I’m so thankful for it, but we, who profess Christ as our Lord, have the ability to point people away from the love of Christ in action while attempting to point them to Christ in doctrine.

I would love to hear from anyone who would like to add to what I wrote or correct me if they feel I have misspoke.

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Great Post, Raider Red !

This is a TEST Reply, since I am a new member, also.

From JAW642 on Friday June 05, 2009 at 03:00 PM Eastern Time ]

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[Ali_formerJW]

I want to start off by saying that I’m new to this forum and wanted to put this out there, knowing I will probably need to read something like this in the near future myself.

I’m new here, too I have found the love in U2. ROFLOL The thread topic is the lyric from one of their songs. And being the big(huge) U2 fan that I am, I now have that song playing in my head.

See what you get for asking?

 

[josie_L]

There are four possible replies:​

• kicking people’s convictions to bits is love, “tough love” (excuse 1 for being a loveless jerk)
• love is sentimental claptrap that real men don’t bother with; the arguments are largely testosterone-fuelled - (excuse 2 for being a loveless jerk)
• people are loveless, and show it by treating others as they would hate to be treated themselves
• Other things are far more important, like belonging to the “right” Christian sect or holding exactly the right beliefs.

If you want love, there is far more real “Christian” love among non-Christians - Christians have a long & hideous, & living, record of hate for one another. That is a fact, which only a liar or an apologist could possibly deny. Non-Christians are with few exceptions the only people whose brains & consciences have not been rotted by believing the competing propagandas of the various Churches.
I think it’s very unwise to become Catholic - but you must do what you think right. I hope for your sake that you don’t find you’ve made a terrible mistake, as I did.

Is there a Truth or is there not?

 

[Ceil-1]

The tone is often misread. Writing is meant to be formal, with certain ettiquette involved. It just doesn’t translate well into informal dialogue. I don’t agree that all religionists, Catholics in particular, are nasty. But, few of us are as nice as we think we are. I get the impression the apostles were terrified of Jesus.

 

[survive]

I don’t find it so much a matter of lovelessness or of the comfort of feeling sure of a belief, when I try to convince someoneof something, as a factual certainty based on what reason, intuition, experience and example have shown me. The way I feel when someone tells me that a spiritual reality isn’t real is just the way I feel when someone talks down to me for believing there is a ceiling above the room I’m in, combined with the way it feels to tell someone not to pick up a piece of broken glass and he says you don’t know anything about glass:banghead:. No hate, no rudeness. Just love, frustration and worry.

 

[JAW642]

Well, Raider Red, you certainly hit the nail on the head. You have proven beyond any doubt that you do not have to be a Catholic to be a good and loving person.

I love your ending quote, because it is so true and it says it all :

I will close by saying that this forum can be used for so much good and I’m so thankful for it, but we, who profess Christ as our Lord, have the ability to point people away from the love of Christ in action , while attempting to point them to Christ in doctrine . ]

I am sure that the Catholic Church wants to point people towards Christ. But the Catholic Church seems to be so caught up in doctrine by dotting every ‘i’ and crossing every ‘t’, and judging the sinfulness of every human action, in relation to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, as written, defined and taught by the Catholic Church, that the Church often fails to acknowledge and show the true and infinite love that God has for all of us.

It seems as though the Catholic Church wants its members to believe that God is sitting up in Heaven with a score card for every human being, recording the degree of vincible or invincible ignorance and culpability, as to whether every action, thought, or omission is a mortal sin, a venial sin, or no sin. Does God really want us to question and to live our normal daily lives under that much scrutiny?

I too am a new member to this Catholic Forum, having joined on the same day that you posted your ‘Where’s the Love?’ post ( Saturday May 30, 2009 ). Now I am wondering if I made a mistake.

On that same day, I submitted one question to the Catholic Forum. As of today, nine days later, I have yet to see my question posted or answered. I did not get any notice that Catholic Forum is working on an answer, or that they will not answer it. One would think that this Catholic Forum would make a sincere effort in answering at least the FIRST post of a new member.

So I am joining you by asking, ‘Where’s the Love?’ , on this Catholic Forum? The action of the Catholic Church members, does not always seem to reflect the teachings and beliefs of the Catholic Church.

Raider Red, if you decide to finalize your process in joining the Catholic Church, I think you will be a great asset to the Church. So just keep on loving, as you feel God wants you to love.

From JAW642 on Monday June 08, 2009 at 02:05 PM Eastern Time ]

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