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A
Abu
Guest
It is salutary to acknowledge the facts.JB Brother 4446 #21, 4/12/15
Your quotes show only that celibacy was the norm, not that it was required in the early years of the Church
While not a doctrine, an Apostolic “norm” means rules, including commands and prohibitions; “rule” means a prescribed guide for conduct; “prescribe” means to issue commands or orders for; tradition means an inherited pattern of thought and action; **custom **means habitual practice of longstanding; practice means a customary way of acting; requirement means indispensable – the celibacy required for priests from the apostles was mandatory, and obligatory.
An excellent historical and theological overview of the question can be found in a little book published in 1993 by Austrian cardinal Alfons Maria Stickler, who died in Rome in 2007 at the age of 97, at the time prefect of the Apostolic Vatican Library:
Alfons Maria Stickler, The Case for Clerical Celibacy. Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1995.
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…/1343466?eng=y
“A wealth of information on the history of celibacy for the clergy of the Catholic Church-in the East and the West. Particularly impressive are his arguments showing that celibacy is necessarily connected to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is refreshing to find a book on celibacy that is rooted in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Magisterium.”
[Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J., Editor, *Homiletic & Pastoral Review]
No reputable refutation of the Apostolic Norm of priestly celibacy can be substantiated after the illustrious scholarly works cited and quoted, including the following detail from Mother Angelica’s Eternal Word Television Network by the scholarly Fr John Echert of EWTN, Nov 10, 2003:
“Fr Cochini examines the question of when the tradition of priestly celibacy began in the Latin Church, and he is able to trace it back to its origins with the apostles. He examines evidence about the marital status of every known bishop, priest or deacon of the period and gives an exhaustive list of married clerics from apostolic times until the end of the seventh century, a list that includes not only the Western Church, but the East and also the Nestorian, Novatian and Pelagian Church. Then Cochini examines the relevant Church documents for the same period, including council and synod documents, papal letters, ecclesial and even secular legislation as it relates to the problem. He also provides a survey of scholarly literature on the topic. This is the definitive scholarly statement on the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Church East and West.”
The disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 are the Church’s earliest record regarding priestly celibacy. The council gave no explanation of its rulings, which were ancient and presumably well-known. Canon 33 forbade all married bishops, priests, and deacons from having sexual relations with their wives and begetting children. The council reminded the married clergy that they were bound by a vow of perpetual continence. Penalty for breaking that vow was deposition from the ministry. Commenting on this council, Pope Pius XI said that these canons, the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (*Ad Catholici Sacerdotii *, 43, 1935).
“Clerics were often chosen from among married older men. After ordination they were required to abstain from conjugal intercourse. In effect then, they were not married. Qui habent uxores, tamquam non habentes sint. “Let those who are married live as if they do not have wives”. Pope Leo the Great in 458 AD borrowed those words of Saint Paul in order to describe the celibacy of the clergy.” *. The Origin Of Priestly Celibacy, by Hugh Ballantyne, June 2003].
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, in The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements, explains the unity existing with and from the apostles, including priestly celibacy.
“That priestly celibacy is not a medieval invention, but goes back to the earliest period of the Church, is shown clearly and convincingly by Card. A.M. Stickler, The *Case for Clerical Celibacy: Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations *(San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1995). Cf.also I: Cochini, Origines apostoliques du celibat sacerdotal (Paris-Namur, 1981); S Heid, Zolibat in der friihen Kirche (Paderborn, 1997).” (p 483 n 2)
[Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements. Communio (Fall 1998), footnote 2, p. 483].
This was for help with daily chores so that more time could be devoted to the teaching functions.Also in First Corinthians, Paul asks,“Aren’t we allowed to take a Christian woman with us as the brothers of the Lord and Cephas do?”
A married priest can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and children. To the extent he does so, he may be forgoing his priestly role as “father,” and people who call a married priest “father” would rightly get the idea that they are second in line as spiritual children. Paul understood this perfectly well when he wrote to the Corinthians, “For he who is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of this world, how he may please his wife; and he is divided” (1 Cor 7:32-34).’
[September 2006 issue of *Crisis Magazine]
E
Eliza10
Guest
This post makes me wonder about you, the poster. So I see you are a brand new poster here, with five posts, and that your first post here this:Seems to me that if many of the apostles and bishops were married (which seems natural to me) why wouldn’t the church now accept married priests? Seems to me that it would cut down on all the pedophilia that exists.How much money in lawsuits does the church have to lose before they see that truth?
“Hi all, this is my first posting on this website. I’m 75 years old and not a practicing catholic…as a matter of fact, i’m far from it. I thought I was going to be able to post questions but I see that one has to jump through a lot of hoops and even then I’m not sure if my questions will get answered…there seems to be some sort of ‘index’ going on here just like in the old days (40’s and 50’s). I was told by a very good catholic friend of mine that things ‘have changed’ since I was a practicing catholic. I will stay on this website if the rest of you can handle tough questions…not ones that have been gleaned and polished over like a press conference. Those are my rules, straight forward, democratic and honest debate…it’s the only way I can live.”
Okay, well first of all you will find your thoughts quoted at the top of this post, while to you they may appear to pose a “tough question”, have actually been answered plenty and very satisfactorily here on the forum. If you hit the search button at the top of the forum menu page, and the little triangle to 'Advanced Search", you can search for such questions as that and you will find really excellent, thought-provoking answers. Abu has some, too.
Your question here is the sort of question the anti-Catholic media loves to fling out there, when they leave no place for debate. Gods ways are not our ways and the idea of chastity or celibacy being any kind of blessing or gift is a foreign one to this world and so it draws hostility, like so many of the things of God, which conflict with the things of this world.
For those of us who are married and have enjoyed the marital embrace as God intended, its hard to imagine it as a substitute of pedophilia:hypno:, which is why I assumed you were a very young unmarried man or woman, kidkepec. But you are not young. Perhaps, never married? Married love and pedophilia have no relation at all. :nope: I do not think a person capable of pedophilia would ever be capable of true marital love.
You are SO BLESSED to be Catholic. At the end of your life you will know it is the most precious gift of your whole life and you will wish you had spent more years knowing the great golden gift you had. But its never to late to start practicing your faith and you will gain much wisdom and much richness. Just as the Kingdom of God is not a worldly kingdom - no, it is a kingdom in our hearts - so also the golden riches of the Catholic Churches are not worldly riches, but spiritual treasures. So many treasures! The sacraments, the Saints! The Blessed Mother, Help of Christians! So much!
Here is a Saint to treasure in your heart, St. Lawrence: brandonvogt.com/st-lawrence-true-treasures-church/
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
]It is salutary to acknowledge the facts.
While not a doctrine, an Apostolic “norm” means rules, including commands and prohibitions; “rule” means a prescribed guide for conduct; “prescribe” means to issue commands or orders for; tradition means an inherited pattern of thought and action; **custom **means habitual practice of longstanding; practice means a customary way of acting; requirement means indispensable – the celibacy required for priests from the apostles was mandatory, and obligatory.
An excellent historical and theological overview of the question can be found in a little book published in 1993 by Austrian cardinal Alfons Maria Stickler, who died in Rome in 2007 at the age of 97, at the time prefect of the Apostolic Vatican Library:
Alfons Maria Stickler, The Case for Clerical Celibacy. Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1995.
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it…/1343466?eng=y
“A wealth of information on the history of celibacy for the clergy of the Catholic Church-in the East and the West. Particularly impressive are his arguments showing that celibacy is necessarily connected to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is refreshing to find a book on celibacy that is rooted in Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and the Magisterium.”
[Fr. Kenneth Baker, S.J., Editor, *Homiletic & Pastoral Review
No reputable refutation of the Apostolic Norm of priestly celibacy can be substantiated after the illustrious scholarly works cited and quoted, including the following detail from Mother Angelica’s Eternal Word Television Network by the scholarly Fr John Echert of EWTN, Nov 10, 2003:
“Fr Cochini examines the question of when the tradition of priestly celibacy began in the Latin Church, and he is able to trace it back to its origins with the apostles. He examines evidence about the marital status of every known bishop, priest or deacon of the period and gives an exhaustive list of married clerics from apostolic times until the end of the seventh century, a list that includes not only the Western Church, but the East and also the Nestorian, Novatian and Pelagian Church. Then Cochini examines the relevant Church documents for the same period, including council and synod documents, papal letters, ecclesial and even secular legislation as it relates to the problem. He also provides a survey of scholarly literature on the topic. This is the definitive scholarly statement on the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Church East and West.”
The disciplinary canons of the Council of Elvira in 305 are the Church’s earliest record regarding priestly celibacy. The council gave no explanation of its rulings, which were ancient and presumably well-known. Canon 33 forbade all married bishops, priests, and deacons from having sexual relations with their wives and begetting children. The council reminded the married clergy that they were bound by a vow of perpetual continence. Penalty for breaking that vow was deposition from the ministry. Commenting on this council, Pope Pius XI said that these canons, the “first written traces” of the “Law of Ecclesiastical Celibacy,” "presuppose a still earlier unwritten practice. " (*Ad Catholici Sacerdotii *, 43, 1935).
“Clerics were often chosen from among married older men. After ordination they were required to abstain from conjugal intercourse. In effect then, they were not married. Qui habent uxores, tamquam non habentes sint. “Let those who are married live as if they do not have wives”. Pope Leo the Great in 458 AD borrowed those words of Saint Paul in order to describe the celibacy of the clergy.” *. The Origin Of Priestly Celibacy, by Hugh Ballantyne, June 2003].
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, in The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements, explains the unity existing with and from the apostles, including priestly celibacy.
“That priestly celibacy is not a medieval invention, but goes back to the earliest period of the Church, is shown clearly and convincingly by Card. A.M. Stickler, The *Case for Clerical Celibacy: Its Historical Development and Theological Foundations *(San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1995). Cf.also I: Cochini, Origines apostoliques du celibat sacerdotal (Paris-Namur, 1981); S Heid, Zolibat in der friihen Kirche (Paderborn, 1997).” (p 483 n 2)
[Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Theological Locus of Ecclesial Movements. Communio (Fall 1998), footnote 2, p. 483].
This was for help with daily chores so that more time could be devoted to the teaching functions.
A married priest can’t help giving his first thoughts to his wife and children. To the extent he does so, he may be forgoing his priestly role as “father,” and people who call a married priest “father” would rightly get the idea that they are second in line as spiritual children. Paul understood this perfectly well when he wrote to the Corinthians, “For he who is without a wife is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of this world, how he may please his wife; and he is divided” (1 Cor 7:32-34).’
[September 2006 issue of *Crisis Magazine]
As shown in the text that you quoted Paul was only making a suggestion to the Corinthians, not a command. Also, if a woman who was not married to you was traveling with you, wouldn’t that be perceive as living in sin? BOOM!
A
Abu
Guest
Ignoring the facts from the historical studies quoted, and then querying St Paul’s facts that as the brothers of the Lord and Cephas have Christian women with them, that might be perceived as “living in sin” “Aren’t we allowed to take a Christian woman with us as the brothers of the Lord and Cephas do?”], shows that the the reality of the Apostolic mission as lived is misunderstood.JB Brother 4446 #24
As shown in the text that you quoted Paul was only making a suggestion to the Corinthians, not a command. Also, if a woman who was not married to you was traveling with you, wouldn’t that be perceive as living in sin?
The celibacy required for priests dates to Apostolic times and was mandatory and obligatory.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Nope YOU just said it was the norm.Ignoring the facts from the historical studies quoted, and then querying St Paul’s facts that as the brothers of the Lord and Cephas have Christian women with them, that might be perceived as “living in sin” “Aren’t we allowed to take a Christian woman with us as the brothers of the Lord and Cephas do?”], shows that the the reality of the Apostolic mission as lived is misunderstood.
The celibacy required for priests dates to Apostolic times and was mandatory and obligatory.
A
Abu
Guest
As “the celibacy required for priests dates to Apostolic times and was mandatory and obligatory” (posts #21, 25), and an Apostolic norm means rules, including commands and prohibitions; “rule” means a prescribed guide for conduct; “prescribe” means to issue commands or orders for; tradition means an inherited pattern of thought and action; custom means habitual practice of longstanding; practice means a customary way of acting; requirement means indispensable, it is a mirage that the Church and the great clerical scholars quoted are wrong and that JB Brother 4446 in his posts, which offer no facts, can refute them.
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
In the text you just quoted from 1st Corinthians, Paul was merely making a suggestion, not a command.As “the celibacy required for priests dates to Apostolic times and was mandatory and obligatory” (posts #21, 25), and an Apostolic norm means rules, including commands and prohibitions; “rule” means a prescribed guide for conduct; “prescribe” means to issue commands or orders for; tradition means an inherited pattern of thought and action; custom means habitual practice of longstanding; practice means a customary way of acting; requirement means indispensable, it is a mirage that the Church and the great clerical scholars quoted are wrong and that JB Brother 4446 in his posts, which offer no facts, can refute them.
A
Abu
Guest
Real Catholics enjoy the truths of faith.
See:
Priestly Celibacy Is Here to Stay – The History of Priestly Celibacy
Fr. Ray Ryland Ph.D.
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-celibacy-is-here-to-stay-the-history-of-priestly-celibacy/
“St. Paul insisted that he had an equal right with the other apostles “to be accompanied by a wife [on his journeys]” (1 Cor. 9:5). The Greek word translated “wife” means “sister woman” or “sister wife.” The word does not refer to a wife in the ordinary sense. Rather, it refers to a woman who served the apostles, providing for them as they carried on their ministry. Scripture several times refers to the women who cared for Our Lord during his earthly ministry and even after His death.”
The Apostolic Norm was recognized by the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, in Non latet (1858):
“Whoever ponders diligently the true tradition of celibacy and clerical continence will indeed find that, from the first centuries of the Catholic Church, if not by a general and explicit law, at least by behavior and custom, it was firmly established that not only bishops and priests, but [all] clergy in holy Orders were to preserve inviolate virginity or perpetual continence.”
[Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, instr. ad Archiep. Fogarasien. et Alba-Iulien. Graeci ritus Non latet Amplitudinem Tuam (24 martii 1858), in Collectanea S. Congregationis de Propaganda Fide seu Decreta, Instructiones, Rescripta pro Apostolicis Missionibus, in 2 vols., (Romae: S.C. de Propaganda Fide, 1907) doc. n. 1158, I: 627-630, at 628].
canonlaw.info/a_deacons.h…ra_Congregatio
“….the Directory on the Ministry and Life of Priests, issued in 1994 by the Congregation for the Clergy. Section 59 affirms (that) the Church, from apostolic times, has wished to conserve the gift of perpetual continence of the clergy and choose the candidates for Holy Orders from among the celibate faithful (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 7:5, 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:2-12, 5:9; Tit. 1:6-8)”, and cites several of the early councils which mandated continence for married as well as unmarried clergy.”
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-…estly-celibacy
See:
Priestly Celibacy Is Here to Stay – The History of Priestly Celibacy
Fr. Ray Ryland Ph.D.
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-celibacy-is-here-to-stay-the-history-of-priestly-celibacy/
“St. Paul insisted that he had an equal right with the other apostles “to be accompanied by a wife [on his journeys]” (1 Cor. 9:5). The Greek word translated “wife” means “sister woman” or “sister wife.” The word does not refer to a wife in the ordinary sense. Rather, it refers to a woman who served the apostles, providing for them as they carried on their ministry. Scripture several times refers to the women who cared for Our Lord during his earthly ministry and even after His death.”
The Apostolic Norm was recognized by the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, in Non latet (1858):
“Whoever ponders diligently the true tradition of celibacy and clerical continence will indeed find that, from the first centuries of the Catholic Church, if not by a general and explicit law, at least by behavior and custom, it was firmly established that not only bishops and priests, but [all] clergy in holy Orders were to preserve inviolate virginity or perpetual continence.”
[Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, instr. ad Archiep. Fogarasien. et Alba-Iulien. Graeci ritus Non latet Amplitudinem Tuam (24 martii 1858), in Collectanea S. Congregationis de Propaganda Fide seu Decreta, Instructiones, Rescripta pro Apostolicis Missionibus, in 2 vols., (Romae: S.C. de Propaganda Fide, 1907) doc. n. 1158, I: 627-630, at 628].
canonlaw.info/a_deacons.h…ra_Congregatio
“….the Directory on the Ministry and Life of Priests, issued in 1994 by the Congregation for the Clergy. Section 59 affirms (that) the Church, from apostolic times, has wished to conserve the gift of perpetual continence of the clergy and choose the candidates for Holy Orders from among the celibate faithful (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 7:5, 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:2-12, 5:9; Tit. 1:6-8)”, and cites several of the early councils which mandated continence for married as well as unmarried clergy.”
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-…estly-celibacy
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Abu, I suggest you reread my last post.Real Catholics enjoy the truths of faith.
See:
Priestly Celibacy Is Here to Stay – The History of Priestly Celibacy
Fr. Ray Ryland Ph.D.
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-celibacy-is-here-to-stay-the-history-of-priestly-celibacy/
“St. Paul insisted that he had an equal right with the other apostles “to be accompanied by a wife [on his journeys]” (1 Cor. 9:5). The Greek word translated “wife” means “sister woman” or “sister wife.” The word does not refer to a wife in the ordinary sense. Rather, it refers to a woman who served the apostles, providing for them as they carried on their ministry. Scripture several times refers to the women who cared for Our Lord during his earthly ministry and even after His death.”
The Apostolic Norm was recognized by the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, in Non latet (1858):
“Whoever ponders diligently the true tradition of celibacy and clerical continence will indeed find that, from the first centuries of the Catholic Church, if not by a general and explicit law, at least by behavior and custom, it was firmly established that not only bishops and priests, but [all] clergy in holy Orders were to preserve inviolate virginity or perpetual continence.”
[Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide, instr. ad Archiep. Fogarasien. et Alba-Iulien. Graeci ritus Non latet Amplitudinem Tuam (24 martii 1858), in Collectanea S. Congregationis de Propaganda Fide seu Decreta, Instructiones, Rescripta pro Apostolicis Missionibus, in 2 vols., (Romae: S.C. de Propaganda Fide, 1907) doc. n. 1158, I: 627-630, at 628].
canonlaw.info/a_deacons.h…ra_Congregatio
“….the Directory on the Ministry and Life of Priests, issued in 1994 by the Congregation for the Clergy. Section 59 affirms (that) the Church, from apostolic times, has wished to conserve the gift of perpetual continence of the clergy and choose the candidates for Holy Orders from among the celibate faithful (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Cor. 7:5, 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:2-12, 5:9; Tit. 1:6-8)”, and cites several of the early councils which mandated continence for married as well as unmarried clergy.”
cuf.org/2003/05/priestly-…estly-celibacy
A
Abu
Guest
Thus the supposition that the Church at the time of the Apostles who were carrying out the mission established by Christ of evangelisation and healing in His Church included married men who were allowed to cohabit with their wives is false, as reliable scholarship has disclosed that clergy in holy Orders were bound to preserve perpetual continence.
M
marymary1975
Guest
It is hard to know with certainty but many believe the only ones who were not married were st John and st Paul
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
That is clearly not true. The Bible clearly says they had wives travelling with them, mentioning Peter in paticular. Peter’s wife is present with him at his martrydom. Philip, one of the Seven, had four daughters presumably with his wife.Thus the supposition that the Church at the time of the Apostles who were carrying out the mission established by Christ of evangelisation and healing in His Church included married men who were allowed to cohabit with their wives is false, as reliable scholarship has disclosed that clergy in holy Orders were bound to preserve perpetual continence.
S
steve53
Guest
Philip’s daughters were all prophetesses.
Made for an interesting dinner conversation, no?
Made for an interesting dinner conversation, no?
A
Abu
Guest
False. As the evidence for perpetual continence has been shown from the great Catholic studies identified and quoted in posts #20, 21, and 22. Iconoclast William James stated this sort of phobia well: “Many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices.”JB Brother 4446 #33
That is clearly not true. The Bible clearly says they had wives travelling with them, mentioning Peter in paticular. Peter’s wife is present with him at his martrydom. Philip, one of the Seven, had four daughters presumably with his wife.
So whether having wives or not that reliable quoted scholarship, in disclosing facts which previously were unclear or unknown, has established clearly that clergy in Holy Orders were bound to preserve perpetual continence. It is fancies, feelings, whims, suppositions and preconceived notions that distort reality.
When St. Peter asked Our Lord, “What about us? We left all we had to follow you.” The Divine Master answered: “I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left house, wife, brothers, parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life” (Lk 18:28-30, cf. Mt 19:27-30; Mk 10:20-21).
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Abu, what about the deacon Philip?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
What about Philip, Abu?False. As the evidence for perpetual continence has been shown from the great Catholic studies identified and quoted in posts #20, 21, and 22. Iconoclast William James stated this sort of phobia well: “Many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices.”
So whether having wives or not that reliable quoted scholarship, in disclosing facts which previously were unclear or unknown, has established clearly that clergy in Holy Orders were bound to preserve perpetual continence. It is fancies, feelings, whims, suppositions and preconceived notions that distort reality.
When St. Peter asked Our Lord, “What about us? We left all we had to follow you.” The Divine Master answered: “I tell you solemnly, there is no one who has left house, wife, brothers, parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not be given repayment many times over in this present time and, in the world to come, eternal life” (Lk 18:28-30, cf. Mt 19:27-30; Mk 10:20-21).
A
Abu
Guest
What’s it about Phillip, JB Brother 4446?
J
JB_Brother_4446
Guest
He was married with 4 virgin daughters. After he was made a deacon.What’s it about Phillip, JB Brother 4446?
A
Abu
Guest
So what?
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