Which is more Moral?

[elts1956]

Illegal immigration has been a topic of dissension among many legal U.S. Citizens.

'Providence Bishop Thomas Tobin asked for a blanket moratorium on immigration raids in Rhode Island until the nation adopts comprehensive immigration reform. Tobin made the requests in a letter sent Tuesday to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Boston.

The letter was sent Tuesday and publicly released Thursday.’

“We often ask, ‘What would Jesus do?’” Tobin said in an interview Thursday. “I know for sure what Jesus would not do, would be to sweep into a community, gather up large numbers of people, separate them from one another and deport them to another country. In my own mind, in my own conscience, that’s crystal clear: Jesus would not do that.”

Which is more moral Bishop Tobin’s stance, or upholding the written laws of the United States? Is the Bishop meddling with secular laws?

In this instance where should separation of Church and State begin?

 

[Sam_Maloney]

The Bishop’s point is valid, but I think its fair to flip the question: would Jesus engage in illegal activities, associate with organized crime [the ‘coyotes’], risk his life and liberty all for the sake of material wealth? Would he either abandon his family, or expose them to these same dangers?

I’m not anti-immigrant, quite the contrary-- I think we are siphoning off the brightest and best of the Mexican nation [in a way that will harm that country, long term].

The border situation is very broken and must be fixed. But tieing the hands of law enforcement will not help.

Sad that he didn’t tell Mexicans that they should apply for visas, avoid the dangers of being illegal, maintain thier dignity and culture and not ‘sell out’ for the sake of money. You hear almost every day about people dieing while trying to cross, very little about them dieing in immigration raids. So which is more evil?

But we are always told that the illegals are only coming here ‘for a better life’. But a ‘better life’ in Catholic terms can’t be reduced to mere material prosperity.

So I guess it seems to me that the Bishop was practicing politics, not spiritual leadership.

 

[Ender]

Which is more moral Bishop Tobin’s stance, or upholding the written laws of the United States? Is the Bishop meddling with secular laws?

In this instance where should separation of Church and State begin?

This is not a question of the separation of Church and State: the bishop, as an American citizen, is entitled to his opinion. I do think, however, that it represents a failure to understand the limits of his own office by equating his political inclinations with moral duties. To answer your question as to which position is more moral: it is probably our obligation to uphold the law and I see no reason why local communities should not do so even if the federal government is remiss in its responsibility.

Ender

 

[pentecostbaby]

I think the bishop’s position is the more moral.
Illegal immigration is a huge problem. Down here in the South, many illegal immigrants work in the agricultural sector. Some of them - and many legal migrant workers - are kept in concentration-camp like conditions. They are denied adequate sanitation, are not allowed to leave under penalty of physical punishment and monetary blackmail. Large landowners take back some or most of the money they earn through various schemes (‘owing’ them for food, travel, etc.). The concrete blocks they live in, I’ve been told by friends who do legal aid for them, look like Dachau.
If these men and women were less frightened about being deported, it would be far easier to work to alleviate their conditions.

 

[Veritas41]

The Bishop’s point is valid, but I think its fair to flip the question: would Jesus engage in illegal activities, associate with organized crime [the ‘coyotes’], risk his life and liberty all for the sake of material wealth? Would he either abandon his family, or expose them to these same dangers?

I’m not anti-immigrant, quite the contrary-- I think we are siphoning off the brightest and best of the Mexican nation [in a way that will harm that country, long term].

The border situation is very broken and must be fixed. But tieing the hands of law enforcement will not help.

Sad that he didn’t tell Mexicans that they should apply for visas, avoid the dangers of being illegal, maintain thier dignity and culture and not ‘sell out’ for the sake of money. You hear almost every day about people dieing while trying to cross, very little about them dieing in immigration raids. So which is more evil?

But we are always told that the illegals are only coming here ‘for a better life’. But a ‘better life’ in Catholic terms can’t be reduced to mere material prosperity.

So I guess it seems to me that the Bishop was practicing politics, not spiritual leadership.

I agree with you. One thing that to me gets overlooked is how unfair it is to legal immigrants to allow large numbers of illegals in and they suffer no legal consequences. What is the point of having immigration laws and orderly processes if we let large numbers of people completely disregard them? Another thing that is overlooked is the unjust social and economic structure of Mexico (that is widespread throughout Latin America) that causes the high un- and under-employment that causes so many of their people to seek economic opportunity here. All I ever hear about on the news is how wealthy we are as a nation but never Mexico’s responsiblity to provide opportunities for its own citizens. Illegal immigration isn’t a solution by any means, just a release valve for Mexico to enable it to continue business as usual with no regard for their own social and economic injustices

 

[rwoehmke]

Let’s face it. The Mexican Government is supporting an undeclared war of aggression on the U.S. When we get enough hispanics into the country they will vote to make the States a Dominion of Mexico and erase the border, such as it is.

Mexico is apparently not at all interested in keeping its citizens at home and derives a fair income from the earnings that it’s citizens send home to support families in Mexico. I have known a few citizens from other countries with less wealth, who have legally immigrated to the States, pay their taxes, and become bona fide citizens who do this same thing of supporting families “back home”. I have no problem with that.

There does not appear to be a good or a workable solution to this problem with illegal immigrants being pushed by anyone, whether Bishop or Politician.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Illegal immigration has been a topic of dissension among many legal U.S. Citizens.

'Providence Bishop Thomas Tobin asked for a blanket moratorium on immigration raids in Rhode Island until the nation adopts comprehensive immigration reform. Tobin made the requests in a letter sent Tuesday to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Boston.

The letter was sent Tuesday and publicly released Thursday.’

“We often ask, ‘What would Jesus do?’” Tobin said in an interview Thursday. “I know for sure what Jesus would not do, would be to sweep into a community, gather up large numbers of people, separate them from one another and deport them to another country. In my own mind, in my own conscience, that’s crystal clear: Jesus would not do that.”

Which is more moral Bishop Tobin’s stance, or upholding the written laws of the United States? Is the Bishop meddling with secular laws?

In this instance where should separation of Church and State begin?

I don’t think that either stance is unequivocally moral or amoral, and I think that a valid moral argument could be made for both.

Bishops have an obligation to speak out when practices and positions of secular society violate human rights and dignity. Historically, it has been perfectly acceptable for a Bishop or a Pope to call for the cessation of a specific government practice or policy (Communism, Apartheid, Abortion, etc.)

But thing about immigration is that neither side represents an absolute moral evil.

The Church teaches that individuals have the right to move from one country to another when it is necessary to provide for themselves or their family. But individuals also have an obligation to observe the just laws of sovereign nations.

The Church also teaches that nations have the right to regulate their borders in order to maintain economic and social equilibrium. But nations have an obligation to remove unjust barriers that prohibit individuals from freely moving from one nation to another.

The Bishop should have communicated the fullness of the Church’s teaching on this issue by clarifying that everyone involved has been remiss in their responsibilities- the immigrants, the US and mexican government, and the companies that hire these people to take advantage of their lack of legal rights and low wage expectations all need to take responsibility for the current situation.

 

[puzzleannie]

Which is more moral Bishop Tobin’s stance, or upholding the written laws of the United States? Is the Bishop meddling with secular laws?

In this instance where should separation of Church and State begin?

please get the rest of the story
he is talking about blanket raids not only at work places but wherever people come for social and government services targeting ethnic groups, w/o regard for who is or is not illegal, breaking up families, holding detainees for months or years who often ARE legal but have no way of proving it because they are denied legal help, and deporting them w/o hearings.

he is upholding Catholic teaching. bravo, he is a brave and outspoken bishop on all social teaching of the Church, including life issues.
if you care about social justice, check out story in our local paper about treatment of “legals” rounded up in these raids
themonitor.com/articles/larin_16428___article.html/immigration_government.htmlin the same site go to news and click immigration and border wall for more stories

 

[elts1956]

please get the rest of the story
he is talking about blanket raids not only at work places but wherever people come for social and government services targeting ethnic groups, w/o regard for who is or is not illegal, breaking up families, holding detainees for months or years who often ARE legal but have no way of proving it because they are denied legal help, and deporting them w/o hearings.

he is upholding Catholic teaching. bravo, he is a brave and outspoken bishop on all social teaching of the Church, including life issues.
if you care about social justice, check out story in our local paper about treatment of “legals” rounded up in these raids
themonitor.com/articles/larin_16428___article.html/immigration_government.htmlin the same site go to news and click immigration and border wall for more stories

Apparently CNN didn’t give the whole story either. I thought he gave a “blanket” request for the moratorium of several months on all illegal aliens being rounded up.

 

[JonathanEdwards]

I disagree with your bishop.

I see nothing in scripture to suggest that Jesus would not be in favor of a nation enforcing it’s own laws.

rwoehmke:

Let’s face it. The Mexican Government is supporting an undeclared war of aggression on the U.S. When we get enough hispanics into the country they will vote to make the States a Dominion of Mexico and erase the border, such as it is.

Mexico is apparently not at all interested in keeping its citizens at home and derives a fair income from the earnings that it’s citizens send home to support families in Mexico. I have known a few citizens from other countries with less wealth, who have legally immigrated to the States, pay their taxes, and become bona fide citizens who do this same thing of supporting families “back home”. I have no problem with that.

I agree. This is why I believe that we should freeze all of Mexico’s assets currently held here until they see the light.

 

[hazmatdude]

I don’t believe Bishop Tobin violates church/state separation. He can say anything he wants although you would expect our Bishop’s to be a bit more prudent about what they do say. Quite obviously he wants a blanket amnesty for all illegal aliens for his own selfish motives. Unfortunately just like Bishop Mahoney of Los Angeles he is an embarrassment to all American parishioners who love our country and believe the United States of America must as a sovereign nation enforce its immigration laws. These Bishop’s and the USCCB are out of step with 70% of the American public who made it clear last year when the House and Senate tried to ram the “comprehensive immigration reform” amnesty bill down our throats that that is not what we want.

 

[puzzleannie]

serious undereducation on the whole immigration issue, shameful when it comes to Catholics, because you are talking about a huge portion of the American Church today. did you even take time to read the whole story? I doubt it.

 

[elts1956]

serious undereducation on the whole immigration issue, shameful when it comes to Catholics, because you are talking about a huge portion of the American Church today. did you even take time to read the whole story? I doubt it.

I think the government’s lack of border protection has made many of us hyper vigilant also more prone to knee jerk reactions. I for one welcome legal immigrants here with open arms, but when the written laws of the U.S. are not upheld or are glossed over, my animosity rises to the surface.

I realize we read only what the news media tell us and that information is one sided so Puzzle Annie tell us where to read the whole story.

 

[St_Francis]

I read the whole story, and I think that’s terrible. And other things that I’ve heard are also terrible.

But it’s not an either/or situation. *Both *situations need to be fixed.

 

[hazmatdude]

serious undereducation on the whole immigration issue, shameful when it comes to Catholics, because you are talking about a huge portion of the American Church today. did you even take time to read the whole story? I doubt it.

It never ceases to amaze me how outstanding American Catholics will ignore the plank in their own eye but never fail overlook the speck in the eye of those who disagree with them especially over the illegal alien problem. If the Church as you imply feels compelled to fill the pews with illegal aliens because of flagging attendance then there is something horribly wrong with the church and its leadership.

With regards to the article you cite it wasn’t relevant to the discussion. If Mr. Larin had become an American citizen he wouldn’t be in this mess.

 

[RobHom]

The Bishop’s point is valid, but I think its fair to flip the question: would Jesus engage in illegal activities, associate with organized crime [the ‘coyotes’], risk his life and liberty all for the sake of material wealth? Would he either abandon his family, or expose them to these same dangers?

Exactly.

I’m not anti-immigrant, quite the contrary-- I think we are siphoning off the brightest and best of the Mexican nation [in a way that will harm that country, long term].

I’m not anti-immigrant either… even though I was born here and I’m a US citizen… my forefathers were immigrants, as we are not “Native Americans”. And you are right…to some extent, there is a siphoning of the labor pool from Mexico. Sadly the Mexican government is oblivious to it…because all that concerns them is the collective millions of dollars that flow into Mexico from these workers…with no concern to the future.

The border situation is very broken and must be fixed. But tieing the hands of law enforcement will not help.

And the reality is that it could be closed off in about 24 hours with no additional fences…trust me on that.

Sad that he didn’t tell Mexicans that they should apply for visas, avoid the dangers of being illegal, maintain thier dignity and culture and not ‘sell out’ for the sake of money. You hear almost every day about people dieing while trying to cross, very little about them dieing in immigration raids. So which is more evil?

But we are always told that the illegals are only coming here ‘for a better life’. But a ‘better life’ in Catholic terms can’t be reduced to mere material prosperity.

Dare I say it…was he pandering to big business? Afterall, correctly documented aliens are likely to be more selective and demanding of not only jobs but higher wages for their skills. They cannot be “victimized” by big business paying them “squat” for their work.

So I guess it seems to me that the Bishop was practicing politics, not spiritual leadership.

Me thinks he may have been. But he may have also been speaking his heart…and being totally honest.

But laws are laws. What does he or anyone else think the Mexicans would do if we jumped the river and snuck into Mexico and offered to work for less than Mexicans? You probably don’t want to know…