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Grace_Seeker
Guest
Agreed.
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johns58w
Guest
I would address that before the 1930’s, abortion and contraception were classified as evil acts and sinful. This was not of opinion or debate throughout all of Christians and quite many Non-Christians alike. After this period,slowly through many certain Christians and Non-Christians their beliefs and doctrines have changed more toward a pro-choice position. This was accelerated after Roe V. Wade approximately 1973 to present. This was probably more toward a modernist relativist view in the past century to gain more members into their congregations.
The Catholic church since Jesus Christ and His apostles have condemned contraception and abortion. These are doctrines of the Catholic faith and will never change no matter what the world says thinks or feels about it. As a Catholic of the Roman Latin Rite. I would like to express my personal apologies to all over life style and behavior of our fellow Catholic brothers and sisters in politics who chose pro-choice and scandalize this lifestyle to the United States and the world. According to the Catholic Church from The Vatican, these people are in heresy,have been excommunicated(not thown out,they are always members)from receiving Sacrament of Holy Communion according to Roman Catholic Church Canon Law. This is not to put these people down but in hopes to bring them up toward their salvation. We condemn the sins not the sinful people. God is the judge of our souls not us.
To everyone, please find online Mike Wallace interview with Margaret Sanger video 9-21-57. also go to blackgenocide.org
The Catholic church since Jesus Christ and His apostles have condemned contraception and abortion. These are doctrines of the Catholic faith and will never change no matter what the world says thinks or feels about it. As a Catholic of the Roman Latin Rite. I would like to express my personal apologies to all over life style and behavior of our fellow Catholic brothers and sisters in politics who chose pro-choice and scandalize this lifestyle to the United States and the world. According to the Catholic Church from The Vatican, these people are in heresy,have been excommunicated(not thown out,they are always members)from receiving Sacrament of Holy Communion according to Roman Catholic Church Canon Law. This is not to put these people down but in hopes to bring them up toward their salvation. We condemn the sins not the sinful people. God is the judge of our souls not us.
To everyone, please find online Mike Wallace interview with Margaret Sanger video 9-21-57. also go to blackgenocide.org
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brkn1
Guest
All true Christians must be pro-life.
I have heard that Catholics were one of the largest voting blocks that elected President Obama, who is most definitely a pro-abortionist and gay rights supporter. I guess church doctrine is less important than what is right to many people.
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
I find it interesting that you have proposed here a lithmus test for Christianity such that one can determine that any who thinking differently than you on this must be non-Christian. You certainly are in pleny of company of others who have likewise proposed such tests. For instance, the term “fundamentalism” comes from the suggestion that there ought to be certain fundamental truths to which all Christian subscribed. Interestingly, it was originally meant to be a way to be inclusive – that despite apparent doctrinal differences that there was a core teaching to which all persons who subscribed could be properly termed “Christian”. However, it quickly became a way to be not inclusive, but exclusive – people supposed Christians were held to the lithmus test of these fundamentals and those who did not in total were deemed to be not genuinely Christian.
In this regard modern day protestant fundamentalists and old guard Catholicism are much the same, believing that there is a source of teaching that must be accepted in order for a person to be included in Christ’s inner circle. What is interesting is that neither of these groups has ever suggested that teaching which you here propose with regard to the pro-life position.
It is one thing to insist that Christianity teaches a pro-life view. (Personally, I would even agree with that position, though my point of view is not relevant to the discussion.) But to say that one must be pro-life or one fails the test of what it means to be Christian, elevatest that view above and beyond being just a teaching of the church, it makes it a point of orthodoxy. You may in fact wish to go that far, but in so doing, are you not actually creating diviisions in the church? Think of all of the other teachings of the church. The church provides a moral compass for the world that is much larger than just the issue of abortion. But do we say that people who don’t agree with us on the issue of XYZ or ABC are not genuine Christians?
My own understanding is that the universal Church is composed of all those who are in Christ by virtue of their faith in him as Savior and Lord. Now, if he is Lord, then that means that he directs our lives and this is where issues of morality come into play. But as we all are imperfect in this regard and do in fact from time to time sin, to be imperfect followers does not in fact exclude us from being part of Christ’s holy Church. This is not to say that praxis is unimportant. It is. But I am not sure that the line you have drawn is where Christ has drawn it. And he, not we, is the one who gets to draw these lines.
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elgar
Guest
The late late-term abortionist, Dr. George Tiller, was a member and usher at his ELCA church in Kansas. I know this is a bit off topic, but he was kicked out of the Missouri Lutheran Synod years back for his line of work. Apparently the ELCA didn’t have a problem with what he was doing. And as was mentioned earlier, the ELCA healthplan covers elective abortions as a benefit to its clergy and staff. Speaks volumes if you ask me.
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BrynnaStar5
Guest
Based on my research that I have been doing on the stances of various denominations on moral issues, here’s what I’ve learned, etc., etc…
United Presbyterian–your decision should be made after careful consideration and pastoral
counsel.
United Methodist–only in extreme circumstances
Evangelical Lutheran–no published stance I could find
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod–pro-life
American Baptist-prochoice
Independent Baptist-pro-life
Episcopalian–seems to be prochoice
Hope this helps to answer your question.
United Presbyterian–your decision should be made after careful consideration and pastoral
counsel.
United Methodist–only in extreme circumstances
Evangelical Lutheran–no published stance I could find
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod–pro-life
American Baptist-prochoice
Independent Baptist-pro-life
Episcopalian–seems to be prochoice
Hope this helps to answer your question.
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Supercatholic
Guest
I just came across this thread so I hope you and everyone else who have participated will see this. First of all it seems you fancy yourself as a clever wordsmith or are completely ignorant of church’s teaching on the subject of abortion. Absolutely no abortion is condoned by the Catholic Church. Opinions of some of its ignorant members does not retract from the churches teaching. If a woman who is pregnant either contracts a life threatening disease or has a life threatening accident and a proceedure must be performed to save her life, then the proceedure must be administered. It is the hope that the baby will survive. But, if the proceedure is NOT administered BOTH mother and baby will die. Because if the mother is left to die then surely the baby will also die. This is not to be confused with “I only believe in abortion if saves the mothers life.” A mothers life can always be saved without having to resort to abortion. Always learn what the Catholic Church teaches from the Church itself not its foolish members that don’t know what they’re talking about.So, what I am reading is that Catholics DO feel there are circumstances when the termination of a pregnancy is allowable…as long as the “intent” to end the pregancy isn’t the main reason to terminate it? Doesn’t sound too much different than those Protestants who chose to save the mother’s life…they don’t “intend” to end the pregnancy…just save the mother and saving the mother has the “unintentional” effect of terminating the pregancy. As I wrote before…it seems to me most of the criticism from Catholics is that those Protestant churches which allow procedures to save the mother’s life but causes the termination of a pregancy is simply a “war of words”…it get’s down to the “gnat’s fanny” wording of the statements. Neither accept abortion as a means of birth control…but if abortion happens due to a “procedure”…it’s not really abortions for Catholics since they say it’s not their “intention” to end the pregancy…but it is for the Protestants since they don’t word their stance the same way.
Signed,
Invincibly Ignorant with an Unformed Conscience
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Supercatholic
Guest
I just came across this thread so I hope you and everyone else who have participated will see this. First of all it seems you either fancy yourself as a clever wordsmith or are completely ignorant of the church’s teaching on the subject of abortion. Absolutely no abortion is condoned by the Catholic Church. Opinions of some of its ignorant members does not retract from the churches teaching. If a woman who is pregnant either contracts a life threatening disease or has a life threatening accident then the proceedure to save her life must be administered. It is the hope that the baby will survive. But, if the proceedure is NOT administered BOTH mother and baby will die. Because if the mother is left to die then surely the baby will also die. This is not to be confused with the “I only support abortion if saves the mother’s life.” mentality. A mother’s life can always be saved without having to resort to abortion. Always learn what the Catholic Church teaches from the Church itself not its foolish members that don’t know what they’re talking about. I hope this clears up the misconception you may have hadSo, what I am reading is that Catholics DO feel there are circumstances when the termination of a pregnancy is allowable…as long as the “intent” to end the pregancy isn’t the main reason to terminate it? Doesn’t sound too much different than those Protestants who chose to save the mother’s life…they don’t “intend” to end the pregnancy…just save the mother and saving the mother has the “unintentional” effect of terminating the pregancy. As I wrote before…it seems to me most of the criticism from Catholics is that those Protestant churches which allow procedures to save the mother’s life but causes the termination of a pregancy is simply a “war of words”…it get’s down to the “gnat’s fanny” wording of the statements. Neither accept abortion as a means of birth control…but if abortion happens due to a “procedure”…it’s not really abortions for Catholics since they say it’s not their “intention” to end the pregancy…but it is for the Protestants since they don’t word their stance the same way.
Signed,
Invincibly Ignorant with an Unformed Conscience
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Grace_Seeker
Guest
It is not just “some”. A recent nationwide survey by the Barna Group shows that the actual beliefs of Catholics and mainline protestants are roughly the same on this issue.
Only evangelical Christians (I assume that evangelical could include both protestants and Catholics) are clearly against abortion, everyone else seems to be willing to go along with the status quo and that means abortions remain the law of the land.
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Supercatholic
Guest
Thank you for the informative statistics. I used the word “some” as an act of kindness. I’m well aware of the sad fact that so many catholics think their opinion supercedes the Church’s teaching. When I watched the 2010 March for Life and Walk for Life I was very happy to see representatives of various protestant denominations speaking up in defense of the unborn. I only wish that it was the entire denomination based on a singular unified teaching and not just the varying viewpoints of different congregations. We may have theological differences, but I can certainly say this; Whether you’re Catholic or Protestant all of us are obligated and commanded to oppose all abortions no matter what the circumstances are because ALL life comes from God.
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Lutheranteach
Guest
Many protestant denominations do not have an official position on that issue and you will find vehemently pro-life and pro-choice people in the same pews every Sunday.
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Supercatholic
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1234
Guest
It’s a matter of means. Everyone supports “life”. No one prefers abortion. But criminalizing abortion won’t end it–it won’t even reduce the incidence. The best defence is a good offence–sex education and contraception, including abstinence. Forbidding contraception is like throwing gasoline on the flames of abortion. This is where the Non-Catholic and the Catholic churches differ. Almost all the Non-Catholic Christian denominations, in addition to the Jews, eastern religions (Buddhists, Hindus) and progressive Muslims support sex education and contraception. Even Amish, Hutterites and the Ultra-Orthodox hasidim support contraception when medically necessary.
Abortion is now available as a medical procedure–pills --which can be administered by non-physicians. The “Plan B” pills, which some think are abortofacients, bty preventing implantation of embryos, in case fertilization does occur–now are effective out to 5 days. These things can’t be prevented by criminalizing them.
If yoyu publish an “all points” bulletin, you’ll reach “pro-lifers” of every stripe who’ll be willing to march. Others, as has been said, in the same pew–won’t.
Abortion is now available as a medical procedure–pills --which can be administered by non-physicians. The “Plan B” pills, which some think are abortofacients, bty preventing implantation of embryos, in case fertilization does occur–now are effective out to 5 days. These things can’t be prevented by criminalizing them.
If yoyu publish an “all points” bulletin, you’ll reach “pro-lifers” of every stripe who’ll be willing to march. Others, as has been said, in the same pew–won’t.
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Supercatholic
Guest
WROOOOONG! 1234, Planned Parenthood prefers abortion. That’s how they stay in business. People like you prefer it. Crimimalizing won’t stop it, but it would reduce it drastically. Especially if the “doctor” the entire staff and every person who lied to, forced, or tricked the mother to have the abortion had to serve a life sentence. If the mother acted of her own accord she should serve a life sentence. We’re down from at one time 4400 babies per day down to 3500 babies per day in the United States alone, being ripped apart and thrown into the trash can. There are not 3500 homocides per day. There are not 3500 bank robberies per day. There are not 3500 aggressive criminal rapes per day. There is not a single criminal activity per day that come close the the proceedure of abortion, by far the most horrid act anyone can ever support or perform. WHY? because those acts ARE CRIMINALIZED! I paraphrase what Dr. Martin Luther King Once said. “The law can’t make my brother love me, but it can punish him if he lynches me”. It’s been proven countless times over and over again wherever contraception is practiced abortions increase not decrease. Why? because contraception is intended to prevent a child and when contraception fails the next logical step is abortion. You see I too read Christina Page’s awful book, which I can tell was a source for your arguments, and I can easily refute every single page of that book and I’m not even a professional debater.
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