Which souls go to hell?

[Flopfoot]

Ah, I edited at the same time you posted.

I’ll re-ask. Thistle, how do you know that it is a grave matter? Please back up this assertion.

 

[TerryPaul]

Interesting … the commandment for us “not to judge”, I believe, is becoming more clear … And thank God!

 

[TerryPaul]

And the other passage that states, without l-o-v-e I have nothing …

 

[Flopfoot]

TerryPaul:

Interesting … the commandment for us “not to judge”, I believe, is becoming more clear … And thank God!

Hmm I wasn’t talking about ‘judging’ in that sense although it still applies… I was more saying ‘judging’ as in being able to figure out something, and saying ‘we can’t judge’ as in that it is impossible (because we can’t predict the future or know someone else’s mind). However, the ‘2 kinds of judging’ are kind of related in that if we can’t objectively judge (the second kind, not being able to figure out) then we shouldn’t subjectively judge (say that someone is going to hell when we don’t know for sure, the kind that Jesus commanded us not to do). Not judging doesn’t mean not giving warnings to people, it doesn’t mean not telling people the truth (so, we should still tell someone that what they have done was a grave matter if we know that it is, and we should warn them not to do it, and warn them that they may need to repent), but it does mean giving people the benefit of the doubt, and it does mean that we shouldn’t make ourselves God and think that we can make decisions that only God can make (like whether or not to forgive someone if they are repantant but haven’t recieved the sacrament).

 

[thistle]

Flopfoot:

Ah, I edited at the same time you posted.

I’ll re-ask. Thistle, how do you know that it is a grave matter? Please back up this assertion.

CCC 2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day

CCC 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 **Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin. **

 

[Flopfoot]

Thanks Thistle (-:

PS Melb_guy, you might just be attending the service that mostly old people attend. I used to think there were no young people in my parish attending mass until I tried going on a Sunday night rather than a Saturday night, and they were all there. Also some parishes tend to attract more young people than others.

Your family and friends likely don’t know that missing mass is a grave matter (heck, I only found that out 2 minutes ago, and I go to mass every week and went to a Catholic school) hence the requirement for full knowledge is not met so it’s probably not a mortal sin for them. (Anyway, if they knew that it was a grave matter they would probably go!) It’s still a venial sin for them of course.

 

[Brendan]

TerryPaul:

Interesting … the commandment for us “not to judge”, I believe, is becoming more clear … And thank God!

We do not judge people, but we are supposed to judge actions.

The First Spiritual Work of Mercy is the admonition of sinners.

The Second Spiritual Work of Mercy is the instruction of the ignorant.

It is a holy act of Mercy to correct others who engage in sinful behavior, and to instruct them in the precepts and teachings of the Church.

 

[setter]

Problem that I find, as do countless others, is we quote a text from the Bible and we think we understand it in its context, then we can find other texts that do not contradicted it but offer a fuller answer.

That’s why we have the Holy Bible rather than a Holy “pamphlet.”

So, I just got off the phone with a Catholic priest, as I needed to have a well balanced answer. I could not summarize as well as he did but basically I understood that our loving God uses every possibility to reach us and search our hearts for goodness.

I am not proof text quoting. Have you (and you priest consultant) read the footnotes or commentaries on the passages that I cited for this thread discussion? You premise appears to be that the infinite Mercy and the Infinite Justice of God cannot co-exist in scripture. I am humble enough to realize that this dual fold aspect of God is a mysteray beyond my comprehension. Still, this does not make the clear contextual words of Jesus impossible to understand.

We have Divine Judgment but Jesus is our Divine Advocate.

Divine Mercy demands Divine Justice with Jesus as our Divine Advocate, correct?

Here is a pertinent commentary by an astute Catholic apologist on how the Church has largely understood the passsages that I cited from Luke and Matthew.

The Reality of Hell
By James Akin

Most fundamentally, the idea that we may hope that hell is empty is against the teaching of Scripture. Even if one were to write off all of Scripture’s warnings about hell as purely hypothetical, Scripture *directly asserts * that many will not be saved.

In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus is asked, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” He replies by stating, “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:23–24). Given the question that prompts it, Jesus’ answer cannot be interpreted to mean anything other than that many will not be saved. There is nothing conditional about the question or Jesus’ answer. He does not say, " If someone does this then he will be damned" or " Anyone who does this will be damned." He says that there are many who fail to enter—and the context is salvation.

The same is indicated elsewhere in the Gospels, such as when Jesus tells us that on the last day “many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matt. 7:22–23). Again, none of this is hypothetical. Jesus says " many will" be cast away from him.
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9809chap.asp

And that no case is clear cut, not even Judas!

No, but as the this CA Apologist points out:

Finally, although the Church does not teach that any particular individual is in hell, I believe that Scripture indicates that Judas Iscariot is in hell. (I acknowledge that other orthodox commentators may disagree on this point.) Jesus says, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24). If Judas ended up in heaven rather than hell, it would be difficult to see how it would have been better for him not to have been born. Going through any amount of temporal pain and disgrace is not worth comparing to the joys of heaven (Rom. 8:18), and, if Judas went to heaven, matters still came out infinitely to his benefit. Only if Judas went to hell, it seems to me, would it have been better for him not to have been born.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9809chap.asp

 

[Magicsilence]

setter:

I am humble

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell. - Cake

 

[LilyM]

Andreas Hofer:

Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell. - Cake

Oh I love that song Bit anti-goat though when you think of it. Most of the goats I’ve met are fine upstanding citizens of the animal world.

 

[BryPGuy89]

TerryPaul:

If we as Catholics have purgatory for us sinners, which souls go to hell?

Thanks,
Terry

I don’t like the way that is worded, just because you are Catholic doesn’t mean purgatory or Heaven, no Hell. Sounds to much like the protestant “saved” no Hell thing.

 

[urban-hermit]

It’s the most important question, isn’t it?: Who goes to hell? – Only God knows!

… HOWEVER, God in His goodness has given us a few points of reference for avoiding hell and getting to heaven. We need to be humble enough to follow His “advice” - aka “the Catholic Church” ( Go to Mass for goodness sake! )

I had dinner with a friend Sunday evening. He told a friend of his (a lapsed Catholic) that he went to confession, and the other guy said “why? can’t you just ask God for forgiveness?”

My friend’s response was - “well, i can’t forgive myself - God is the One Who forgives me.”
Good answer I think. While it is true that we can go directly to God with an act of contrition and be confident of forgiveness for venial sins, serious sins are a different matter.

I heard once from a priest what i think is excellent advice: whenever you have committed an offense against God that is “grave matter” or you think might be a mortal sin,
pray at once for forgiveness, make a firm resolution and plan to
break with that behavior, resolve to go to confession at your earliest opportunity, and then go to confession!

This way we can live at all times with sanctifying grace - a firm hope that we will be saved!

We simply have to live in the reality that sin is the only thing that can separate us from God. The best way to do that? I like the suggestion I heard from Karl Keating once when he was making arguments against “faith alone” for good works: If we fill our life with doing good works - prayer, works of service, anything that pleases God - we won’t have time to sin!

It is entirely possible that getting into heaven is a lot harder than is generally believed in polite society. However, God says it is overwhelmingly worth it! “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the hearts of men what God has prepared for those who love Him.” (1Cor2:9)

I have also heard it said that God does not send us to hell as much as we choose hell when we don’t follow in our lives what God has revealed is necessary to live with Him. Luckily, if we stay close to the Church and follow her teachings, mortal sin is improbable - at least that is what i have heard from Fr Groeschel and others on EWTN. At the very least, your conscience will sound out loud and clear if ever you should fall into mortal sin, in which case you can follow the emergency plan above and go to confession. (am i saying that too much? ) God’s laws are spiritual, but they are like the law of gravity or any physical laws which the physical world conforms to. We can’t escape them. God is good - infinitely so - and if we are not also good we are implicitly using the free will He has given us to choose other than Him. Basically we are rejecting Him.

The good news is that God is also infinitely merciful. He gives us every chance He can. But in the end it is our choice. Will we develop the humility to say “whatever you tell me to reject as bad, i will reject as bad, and whatever you tell me to embrace as Your will, I will embrace.” Will we have the humility to say this and mean it at the time of our death?

Basically, I don’t think salvation “just happens”. That’s not to say we earn our salvation - it is a gift of grace, and we could never possibly deserve the wonderful things God promises those who love Him. But even to accept the gift honestly takes some work on our part. Because God basically gives us what we want at the time of our death, we must be careful not to form strong attachments to things which are sinful. We “choose” implicitly by what we love. Do we love God’s ways? Do we feel blessed to even know what they are? Shouldn’t we share this incredibly advantageous knowledge with others who are not Catholic?

Anyway, as the OP has said, our great consolation is that God is infinitely merciful - however generous we are in obeying His commands, He will out-do us with His generosity towards us. That should be a great comfort to us. But we have to be honest with ourselves, because He will not bring us to heaven against our will, if what we truly want is our sin. And so the closer we stay to Him every day the safer we are. Don’t wait years before going to confession!
hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5593993

 

[TerryPaul]

“Being a Christian is easy, it’s just humanly impossible.”

Echoing Professor Scott Hahn