Which universe would you choose?

[PeeGump]

First of all, welcome to the forums PeeGump!

Thanks!

Does “thinking for yourself” automatically rule out believing what you (apparently) were told?

I think any group that expects every member to agree to a set of beliefs (whether that group is Catholic, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, etc) is inherently asking their members to reject critical and independent thought. I would refuse to give myself any label in that regard. I would, however, identify myself as an atheist because there is no doctrine, charter, or platform associated with that label. On a side note, I find it very creepy when everyone at mass repeats the Nicene creed together.

I’d be willing to bet that the contradictions you saw, were not when looked at carefully.

The contradictions I refer to have more to do with my own thoughts about God or religion in general. For instance, to me praying is a contradiction: If God is perfect and omnipotent then he is able to prevent terrible things (hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, 911, etc.) Why pray for victims that God decided to make victims in the first place? You must conclude that he did not control those events. If he is not actually in control, than praying to him would have no effect anyway, so why pray? If he is in control, why would he decide to reverse something he already decide to do?

Or much more eloquently:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

“Happier than ever before”…I don’t know if this applies to you or not, but many people find happiness in sin, and don’t want anyone to tell them that they’re sinning, or that it’s wrong. Sex outside of marriage, for example. Certainly, you won’t find atheists telling each other that they’re sinning.

Actually, (you’ll have to take my word) I am a very good person. But I am good because I see the intrinsic value in being good, not because I think God is watching me and that I will get punished or rewarded based on my behavior. I think there is an incredibly wrong assumption about atheists in that we have no one to answer to so we “sin” constantly. In fact, some of the most vile people I have ever met have been very “religious” (like the priest in my childhood parish that turned out to be a pedophile) and some of the most caring and generous have been atheists. I am happier than ever before because I have only myself to live up to. When I believed in a God I felt constant stress. Imagine having a parent spy on you all day and all night. Not only that, they can read your thoughts too! Taking that stress away lets me be a good person for my own satisfaction.

The universe is the way it is because God made it that way, laws and all. To deny God is to deny reality.

Not quite. There is no evidence for God so there is no way you can say for certain that “God made it that way.” All we can say for certain is “The universe is the way it is.” Believe me, there was a long time that I wanted to believe in God and tried to find rational evidence for his existence, but there is none. If you had been born back in ancient Greece you may have invoked gods to change the season or move the sun across the sky, but as we learn more about how the universe is we can explain more and more without invoking a god. You claim that God created the universe, but there is no reason to say that other than the fact that we don’t know for sure how it started. Based on some of the theories as to how the universe began it seems much more a leap of faith to trust that God created it. If we need to invoke God to start the universe, why don’t we need to invoke something else to have created God? Another contradiction that I can’t escape.

And what then gives the laws meaning or purpose if not God?

Laws don’t have to have meaning and/or purpose, certainly not meaning or purpose given to it by God. Don’t make the mistake of thinking everything in the universe was created simply for us to enjoy it and suit us. The universe has been here for 13.7 billion years. People have been here for 200,000. If laws are meant to have purpose for human life then why have we only been around for 0.001 % of it?

And why do these good thoughts exist? And who defines them as good or beautiful?

Neuroscience is working on this. “Good” and “beautiful” can and should be defined in part by the chemical response in our brains.

Have Catholics done bad things? Yes, of course. Were they following Catholic teachings at the time? No.

The buying/selling of indulgences? The countless torture and murder carried out during the inquisition under the watch of Pope Gregory IX? The treatment of Galileo Galilei for advancing science (who was only forgiven in 1992, 150 years after his death)? The sexist structure of the church today denying women equal representation in the hierarchical ranks? The insistence that being gay is unnatural even though humans along with dozens of other species naturally display homosexual tendencies? I could go on, but you get the point.

There are lots of good Catholics. As an atheist I am happy to admit that. I wish Catholics could say that I am good without thinking I will burn in Hell because I don’t believe the same things they do.

 

[ricmat]

Thanks!

I think any group that expects every member to agree to a set of beliefs (whether that group is Catholic, Muslim, Democrat, Republican, etc) is inherently asking their members to reject critical and independent thought. I would refuse to give myself any label in that regard. I would, however, identify myself as an atheist because there is no doctrine, charter, or platform associated with that label. On a side note, I find it very creepy when everyone at mass repeats the Nicene creed together.

The contradictions I refer to have more to do with my own thoughts about God or religion in general. For instance, to me praying is a contradiction: If God is perfect and omnipotent then he is able to prevent terrible things (hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, 911, etc.) Why pray for victims that God decided to make victims in the first place? You must conclude that he did not control those events. If he is not actually in control, than praying to him would have no effect anyway, so why pray? If he is in control, why would he decide to reverse something he already decide to do?

Or much more eloquently:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
— Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

Actually, (you’ll have to take my word) I am a very good person. But I am good because I see the intrinsic value in being good, not because I think God is watching me and that I will get punished or rewarded based on my behavior. I think there is an incredibly wrong assumption about atheists in that we have no one to answer to so we “sin” constantly. In fact, some of the most vile people I have ever met have been very “religious” (like the priest in my childhood parish that turned out to be a pedophile) and some of the most caring and generous have been atheists. I am happier than ever before because I have only myself to live up to. When I believed in a God I felt constant stress. Imagine having a parent spy on you all day and all night. Not only that, they can read your thoughts too! Taking that stress away lets me be a good person for my own satisfaction.

Not quite. There is no evidence for God so there is no way you can say for certain that “God made it that way.” All we can say for certain is “The universe is the way it is.” Believe me, there was a long time that I wanted to believe in God and tried to find rational evidence for his existence, but there is none. If you had been born back in ancient Greece you may have invoked gods to change the season or move the sun across the sky, but as we learn more about how the universe is we can explain more and more without invoking a god. You claim that God created the universe, but there is no reason to say that other than the fact that we don’t know for sure how it started. Based on some of the theories as to how the universe began it seems much more a leap of faith to trust that God created it. If we need to invoke God to start the universe, why don’t we need to invoke something else to have created God? Another contradiction that I can’t escape.

Laws don’t have to have meaning and/or purpose, certainly not meaning or purpose given to it by God. Don’t make the mistake of thinking everything in the universe was created simply for us to enjoy it and suit us. The universe has been here for 13.7 billion years. People have been here for 200,000. If laws are meant to have purpose for human life then why have we only been around for 0.001 % of it?

Neuroscience is working on this. “Good” and “beautiful” can and should be defined in part by the chemical response in our brains.

The buying/selling of indulgences? The countless torture and murder carried out during the inquisition under the watch of Pope Gregory IX? The treatment of Galileo Galilei for advancing science (who was only forgiven in 1992, 150 years after his death)? The sexist structure of the church today denying women equal representation in the hierarchical ranks? The insistence that being gay is unnatural even though humans along with dozens of other species naturally display homosexual tendencies? I could go on, but you get the point.

There are lots of good Catholics. As an atheist I am happy to admit that. I wish Catholics could say that I am good without thinking I will burn in Hell because I don’t believe the same things they do.

PG - The things you talk about are very common complaints. Really, you should start some new threads, or participate in existing ones that discuss these issues.

There’s just too much to handle here at the same time.

In any case, I hope you stick around, and look and listen with an open mind. It is not wrong to have doubts, or misunderstandings. The things you mentioned above all have good answers, and I hope you find them rather than just jump ship…