White wine for communion?

[glendab]

Bravo Jim!

That’s not really the way the Church works. I know it is easier for Catholics wishing for a single place for all procedures required by Catholics to keep to the right side of salvation, but Church Law is a little more complicated…A single pronouncement, even in Canon Law/GIRM, usually (I hesitate to say never) does not over-ride all previous pronouncements… Like most things in the Catholic Church, most of Canon Law is not new and is an affirmation of traditions held by the Church from time immemorial. As such, Canon Law rarely over-turns previously validly-sanctioned documents…The rule in Canon Law (on sacramental wine only a single-sentence sub canon of Canon 924) is short and brief and states what has been the practice of the Church from early days…Church law does require local adaptation (of which the Davenport document is one) especially on this issue due to differing regulating laws. The Davenport document referred to Iowan law and I am sure laws in other states and other countries may differ, requiring the way sacramental wines are to be made, packaged, labelled and marketed - all the while keeping to the right side of Church and secular laws… Such adaptations are necessary, and the Vatican would be foolish to supplant all previous pronouncements by some 3000 bishoprics, VAs, SPs, etc with a single short sentence…Church Law is a lot more interesting than finding quotations from a single place. Otherwise we would just be reduced to memorising the 832 listed sins, much like Sola Scriptura people memorise Bible verses.

Excellent lay-scholarship. You are right on target. The Davenport document shows how a Bishop applies the rule of Law in his diocese. He is the arbiter of what types of wines and where from those wines are obtained. Anyone wanting to question the Bishop about wines and his selections could do so, but who would?

Jim, I love what you said about comparing the Sola Scripturists to those who quote Canons as if they are Scriptures and would eliminate all OTHER sources of Church Traditions if they aren’t clearly spelled out in the current Codes. Sola Canon-Lawists. Need I remind everyone that the OFFICAL Authoritative Application AND Authentic Interpretation of those Canons and ALL Other Church Law is given by the Church to certain persons, the Bishop being only one. Mere lay persons cannot Authoritatively Interpret Canon Law, nor should they try and pass off their own interpretations of Canons as valid applications. Please try and understand this.

The Davenport Document is an excellent example of Authoritative Application.

Glenda

 

[jimkhong]

Bravo Jim!

Excellent lay-scholarship. You are right on target. The Davenport document shows how a Bishop applies the rule of Law in his diocese. He is the arbiter of what types of wines and where from those wines are obtained. Anyone wanting to question the Bishop about wines and his selections could do so, but who would?

Jim, I love what you said about comparing the Sola Scripturists to those who quote Canons as if they are Scriptures and would eliminate all OTHER sources of Church Traditions if they aren’t clearly spelled out in the current Codes. Sola Canon-Lawists. Need I remind everyone that the OFFICAL Authoritative Application AND Authentic Interpretation of those Canons and ALL Other Church Law is given by the Church to certain persons, the Bishop being only one. Mere lay persons cannot Authoritatively Interpret Canon Law, nor should they try and pass off their own interpretations of Canons as valid applications. Please try and understand this.

The Davenport Document is an excellent example of Authoritative Application.

Glenda

Thanks Glenda. Nice to be affirmed.

 

[His_helpmeet]

My experience has been that church supply stores sell wine that is intended for Holy Communion. (There are supply stores that specialize in Catholic products, and they may sell Communion wine.) Incidentally, you can sometimes also buy altar breads at these stores, but there is also an order of nuns called the Sisters of the Precious Blood that makes them.

 

[tawny]

A Protestant friend told me his church uses white wine for communion. I have never seen this in a Catholic Church. Is it ever used?

Many parishes prefer to use the white wine so as to prevent damage to the altar cloths in the event of any spillage. The red wine would make laundrering of the altar linens difficult. There is no set rule as to which wine is used. It may be either red or white.

 

[johnnykins]

It’s interesting that some people think red wine is more traditional…I never saw red wine used at Mass until the early 70s. Perhaps 40 years is sufficient for tradition?

Also, some folks like red wine because it looks more like blood. Since the wine ceases to be wine at the consecration, I’ve always preferred white wine because the reality is beyond our senses and having it white and UNlike blood reminds us of that. Just my thoughts on it.

Of course, the practicality of using white wine is an issue as mentioned several times above.

Some have also suggested that the wine at the Last Supper was red. I’m not sure anyone really knows. White wine is made from pressed red grapes or white grapes; red from non-pressed grapes. Certainly pressed wines were known in antiquity. Maybe they weren’t a Montrachet, but they weren’t a Romanee Conti, either.

I will add a story from the late 70’s where the local priest at a youth group suggested the youth (18+ = in the days of the 18 y/o drinking age) bring the wine to use at Mass. he then gingerly said, “it’s sort of a tradition that it should be at least 12% alcohol and must be grape wine - not apple or strawberry wine.” A visiting Dominican at the meeting retorted, “What do you mean ‘sort of a tradition’ it’s Canon Law!”

 

[Brendan]

Hello Corki. Your statement about the “universal law” as somehow superior to, or as you say, superseded by how the laws are used by the Bishops who oversee their application in each diocese is not accurate.

Corki is accurate. Universal Laws of the Church DO apply everywhere (hence the name). Within their scope of authority, a local bishop may create what is known as Particular Law. Particular Law can never contradict Universal Law, unless special approval is given by the Vatican.

Now the Universal law related to this issue has already been stated, wine from grapes.

It is probably within the scope of authority for the local bishop to create particular law so that, say, only Chardonnay be used in the parishes within his diocese.

I say ‘probably’ because the bishop can only issue particular law that does not conflict with what was intended by Universal law. If Canon 1412 was intended to allow the celebrant the choice any wine that meets that criteria, then a bishop cannot override that.

An example would be the Mass in Latin. Even though that there are a large number of Vatican approved vernacular texts, a local bishop could not issue Particular Law mandating that the Masses in his diocese be said using English exclusively. The intent of the Universal Law, as confirmed by Rome, is that the Latin is considered to be normative, and thus no Particular Law could override that. A priest in any diocese is free to say the Mass in Latin whenever he desires to do so.

If the intent of Canon 1412 is to give a general criteria of what wines may be used, as long as they are of grapes, then the Bishop may restrict it. If it is intented to five a freedom of choice to celebrants, then the bishop would not.

But in either case, Particular Law does NOT override Universal Law.

 

[glendab]

Corki is accurate. Universal Laws of the Church DO apply everywhere (hence the name). Within their scope of authority, a local bishop may create what is known as Particular Law. Particular Law can never contradict Universal Law, unless special approval is given by the Vatican.

Now the Universal law related to this issue has already been stated, wine from grapes.

It is probably within the scope of authority for the local bishop to create particular law so that, say, only Chardonnay be used in the parishes within his diocese.

I say ‘probably’ because the bishop can only issue particular law that does not conflict with what was intended by Universal law. If Canon 1412 was intended to allow the celebrant the choice any wine that meets that criteria, then a bishop cannot override that.

An example would be the Mass in Latin. Even though that there are a large number of Vatican approved vernacular texts, a local bishop could not issue Particular Law mandating that the Masses in his diocese be said using English exclusively. The intent of the Universal Law, as confirmed by Rome, is that the Latin is considered to be normative, and thus no Particular Law could override that. A priest in any diocese is free to say the Mass in Latin whenever he desires to do so.

If the intent of Canon 1412 is to give a general criteria of what wines may be used, as long as they are of grapes, then the Bishop may restrict it. If it is intented to five a freedom of choice to celebrants, then the bishop would not.

But in either case, Particular Law does NOT override Universal Law.

Hello Brendan. So nice of you to help with this. My issue is with Corki saying that the Bishop’s Application of the Laws was now over with since their are new Canons and they SUPERCEDE anything that went before, as in dates. At least that is how I perceived what he said. Canons are for whom they are written for and their application isn’t up to either you or I or Corki. The Bishop still decides which wines are for use in his diocese. The use of wine in the Mass goes all the way back to the Last Supper and the Institution of the Eucharist. Their was no Canon law then. The Canons developed over the centuries.

The original question was whether or not white wine was licit to use at Mass and it seems it is. The Canons aren’t very specific about particular wines. I drew attention to the fortifying of wines and found other documents helpful in demonstrating the Authentic Interpretation and Authoritative Application of those same Canons ALONG SIDE OF other rules and regulations. Canons do not stand alone as the ONLY Laws of the Church.

I also said no lay person is actually allowed to interpret these Canons for the Church and those in it. We certainly can and should read them and try to understand them, but we don’t apply them at all. It is wrong to assume the Church’s authority to oneself and to pretend that you are authoritatively giving the last word as if speaking for the Church herself. It sometimes seems that way when some quote the Canons.

Sorry, but this is just how I feel. I am after all just a woman and no expert.

Glenda

 

[Brendan]

Hello Brendan. So nice of you to help with this. My issue is with Corki saying that the Bishop’s Application of the Laws was now over with since their are new Canons and they SUPERCEDE anything that went before, as in dates. At least that is how I perceived what he said. Canons are for whom they are written for and their application isn’t up to either you or I or Corki. The Bishop still decides which wines are for use in his diocese.

That is true (most likely, I haven’t looked to see if there are any decisions from Rome specifically on Canon 1412).

But it is true because Rome has most likely chosen to give the bishops that discretion.

Here is the relevant Canon

Can. 6 §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated:

1/ the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;

2/ other universal or particular laws contrary to the prescripts of this Code unless other provision is expressly made for particular laws;

3/ any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See unless they are contained in this Code;

4/ other universal disciplinary laws regarding matter which this Code completely reorders.

§2. Insofar as they repeat former law, the canons of this Code must be assessed also in accord with canonical tradition.

Most likely, this Particular Law that you refer to falls under Provision 2, as it does not seem to be contrary to the prescripts of the 1982 Code. But there is also a likelihood that Rome intention with Canon 1412 was to remove any local specifications (Particular Law) regarding types of wine and alcohol content. It would be up to Rome to provide specific guidance.

Thus neither, you, I nor Corki have any guarantees. It would fall to Rome to make a determination one way or the other.

Another factor is that we have little way of knowing if a subsequent bishop revoked the Particular Law that you referenced. If that had happened, the Law would no longer be in force.

 

[Eugenius]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my question!

 

[frjohnmorris]

All are equally valid. I have all the above (including the sherry) in one parish.

I believe only the Eastern Churches require the wine to be red.

You are correct. It would be unthinkable to use white wine in an Eastern Orthodox Church. However, we also use red Communion cloths.

Fr. John W. Morris