White Wine?

[BHawkes]

Usually special communion wine is used because it lasts MUCH longer because it is almost always fortified with pure spirit made from grapes. This stops the fermentation which leaves some residual sweetness in the wine and prevents the wine from turning to vinegar in a matter of a couple of days.

I don’t believe that’s the case. Adding “pure spirit” to wine would make it a fortified wine (like port), and fortified wines are not acceptable for Holy Communion. No sacramental wines for use in the Catholic Church are fortified in this manner.

If I open a bottle or wine today and then re-seal it, it will keep for months before souring.

In the distant past, brandy would be added to very low-grade, homemade sacramental wine to improve its palatability and shelf-life. This fortified wine which was known as angelica would not be suitable for Holy Communion.

 

[Sure]

I don’t believe that’s the case. Adding “pure spirit” to wine would make it a fortified wine (like port), and fortified wines are not acceptable for Holy Communion. No sacramental wines for use in the Catholic Church are fortified in this manner.

If I open a bottle or wine today and then re-seal it, it will keep for months before souring.

In the distant past, brandy would be added to very low-grade, homemade sacramental wine to improve its palatability and shelf-life. This fortified wine which was known as angelica would not be suitable for Holy Communion.

If the pure spirit is made from grapes then it is still completely made from grapes. Virtually every sacramental wine company makes wine in accordance with canon law that is fortified to some degree. That is why much of the sacramental red wine has a brownish tinge

If you open wine and then seal it and re-open a month later it will be vinegar not wine. Wine will significantly degrade and become madeirized within 2 or 3 days of exposure to oxygen.

 

[BHawkes]

If the pure spirit is made from grapes then it is still completely made from grapes. Virtually every sacramental wine company makes wine in accordance with canon law that is fortified to some degree. That is why much of the sacramental red wine has a brownish tinge

If you open wine and then seal it and re-open a month later it will be vinegar not wine. Wine will significantly degrade and become madeirized within 2 or 3 days of exposure to oxygen.

One cannot use for example brandy which is made from grapes yet it has been distilled. Nor can one use port or sherry which is fortified wine – it has a “spirit” added to it, nor Champagne which has added sugars.

You are also wrong about the shelf-life of wines. I have wine that I use for cooking that is still quite drinkable after being uncorked (but properly re-sealed and stored) for 3+ months.

 

[stmaria]

*De Defectibus *Papal Bull of Pope St. Pius V.

traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Pope/St_Pius_V/De_Defectibus.html

II - Defects of the matter
2. Defects on the part of the matter may arise from some lack in the materials required. What is required is this: bread made from wheat flour, wine from grapes, and the presence of these materials before the priest at the time of the Consecration.
III - Defect of bread
3. If the bread is not made of wheat flour, or if so much other grain is mixed with the wheat that it is no longer wheat bread, or if it is adulterated in some other way, there is no Sacrament.
4. If the bread has been made with rose-water or some other distillation, the validity of the Sacrament is doubtful.

III - Defect of bread
3. If the bread is not made of wheat flour, or if so much other grain is mixed with the wheat that it is no longer wheat bread, or if it is adulterated in some other way, there is no Sacrament.
IV - Defect of wine
11. If the wine has become mere vinegar, or is completely bad, or if it has been made from sour or unripe grapes, or if so much water has been mixed with it that the wine is adulterated, there is no Sacrament.
12. If the wine has begun to turn to vinegar or to become corrupt, or if it is souring, or if it is unfermented, being made from newly pressed grapes, or if it has not been mixed with water, or if it has been mixed with rose-water or some other distillation, the Sacrament is valid, but the celebrant is guilty of grave sin.
V - Defects of the form
20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating. Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:
HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM, and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM
If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament. If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid, but he would be committing a grave sin."

 

[Sure]

One cannot use for example brandy which is made from grapes yet it has been distilled. Nor can one use port or sherry which is fortified wine – it has a “spirit” added to it, nor Champagne which has added sugars.

You are also wrong about the shelf-life of wines. I have wine that I use for cooking that is still quite drinkable after being uncorked (but properly re-sealed and stored) for 3+ months.

Well, all of the canon law approved wineries that I have seen on the web use fortification, so you might be mistaken.

This might help…

To conserve weak and feeble wines, and in order to keep them from souring or spoiling during transportation, a small quantity of spirits of wine (grape brandy or alcohol) may be added, provided the following conditions are observed (1) The added spirit (alcohol) must have been distilled from the grape (ex genimime vitis); (2) the quantity of alcohol added, together with that which the wine contained naturally after fermentation, must not exceed eighteen per cent of the whole; (3) the addition must be made during the process of fermentation (S. Romana et Univ. Inquis., 5 August, 1896).

Also, I collect and drink a lot of wine. No wine re-opened after 3 and a half months is going to taste good to anyone who drinks wine. It would not be at all drinkable. It would be wet and have some wine like flavors, but I shudder to think of the taste. I have tasted wines that have been resealed for 7-8 days and they were…well, not wine, they were horrible. Now, cooking with it is a different matter since cooked wine is chemically changed by the cooking process and the flavors are radically altered.

 

[BHawkes]

Well, all of the canon law approved wineries that I have seen on the web use fortification, so you might be mistaken.

This might help…

Also, I collect and drink a lot of wine. No wine re-opened after 3 and a half months is going to taste good to anyone who drinks wine. It would not be at all drinkable. It would be wet and have some wine like flavors, but I shudder to think of the taste. I have tasted wines that have been resealed for 7-8 days and they were…well, not wine, they were horrible. Now, cooking with it is a different matter since cooked wine is chemically changed by the cooking process and the flavors are radically altered.

Actually it is you that is mistaken. While I am aware that very strong natural (high alcohol content which can be realized through natural means) wine can be added to other wine for a variety of reasons, adding distilled alcoholic beverage (AKA “spirits” – even if the basis was grape-based wine) would render the now fortified wine unfit for use in Holy Communion.

Can. 924-3 “The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.”

Now to suggest that wine goes bad just about as soon as you open it is also ridiculous. In fact I remember talking to a group of professional sommeliers about an extremely robust and fairly young cabernet sauvignon. Their individual opinions was that it should be uncorked, decanted in a very wide-mouthed pitcher and left to breathe overnight! I was sorta shocked at their advice until I did some research and found their advice was quite accurate.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

More than anything, my concearn is with the intention of the usage.

Even though white may be acceptable, I grew up in a parish school setting that used white wine, wooden bowls, clear glass wine glasses, and at reception of the Eucharist the EMs were told to say “The Presence of Christ”.

I can’t help but believe this was all done to underscore the low Christology and sacramental leanings of the priest who introduced these practices.

It may be “kosher” but it kind of was odd and bothersome to me.

If I have my choice, I choose red. That is just me.

 

[BHawkes]

More than anything, my concearn is with the intention of the usage.

Even though white may be acceptable, I grew up in a parish school setting that used white wine, wooden bowls, clear glass wine glasses, and at reception of the Eucharist the EMs were told to say “The Presence of Christ”.

I can’t help but believe this was all done to underscore the low Christology and sacramental leanings of the priest who introduced these practices.

It may be “kosher” but it kind of was odd and bothersome to me.

If I have my choice, I choose red. That is just me.

I sorta think it’s the reverse of that (although I have no idea what went on in your parish.)

That using white wine underscores the fact that the wine truly becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ and under the appearance of wine and that it’s not merely a simulation – using red wine to simulate His Blood.

 

[Sure]

Actually it is you that is mistaken. While I am aware that very strong natural (high alcohol content which can be realized through natural means) wine can be added to other wine for a variety of reasons, adding distilled alcoholic beverage (AKA “spirits” – even if the basis was grape-based wine) would render the now fortified wine unfit for use in Holy Communion.

Can. 924-3 “The wine must be natural, made from grapes of the vine, and not corrupt.”

Now to suggest that wine goes bad just about as soon as you open it is also ridiculous. In fact I remember talking to a group of professional sommeliers about an extremely robust and fairly young cabernet sauvignon. Their individual opinions was that it should be uncorked, decanted in a very wide-mouthed pitcher and left to breathe overnight! I was sorta shocked at their advice until I did some research and found their advice was quite accurate.

Whoa, I didn’t say it went bad almost immediately…just fairly quickly. Yes, the sommeliers are exactly correct. I do this often with tannic young reds. But one day, is very very different from 5 days or as you said earlier 3 months. When you expose a wine to air it goes quickly downhill, essentially it ages rapidly. A common rule of thumb is that every hour the wine is open to the air is about equal to 1 year of bottle age. So, a tannic high-quality red like a classified bordeaux could theoretically peak at 20 years or so after the vintage. I almost always open reds about 1-2 hours before serving, sometimes much longer! Isn’t wine awesome!!!

Now on to the distillation issue. The Catholic Encyclopedia that I quoted from above references a Vatican document that SPECIFICALLY mentions brandy which is distilled from grapes. They don’t say only “wine” may be added to wine. They say a “spirit of wine” which would be a spirit distilled from wine (such as brandy). So, either the Vatican made a mistake on the rule against distillation, or you did.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I sorta think it’s the reverse of that (although I have no idea what went on in your parish.)

That using white wine underscores the fact that the wine truly becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ and under the appearance of wine and that it’s not merely a simulation – using red wine to simulate His Blood.

You are of the opinion that those who prefer white wine usage do so to underscore the real presence?

While either is valid (see: zenit.org/article-10609?l=english)), in my neck of the woods, I am not left with the impression that those who opt for white are doing so to underscore the real presence.

 

[Sure]

You are of the opinion that those who prefer white wine usage do so to underscore the real presence?

While either is valid (see: zenit.org/article-10609?l=english)), in my neck of the woods, I am not left with the impression that those who opt for white are doing so to underscore the real presence.

We use white and my parish is very orthodox. It doesn’t really matter anyway since the priest is the only one who sees the wine. The only time we see it is if you happen to look at the cruet. Other than that no one would know whether white or red was being used. Actually, we used to use red then changed for no particular reason.

 

[Leibnitz]

…Now on to the distillation issue. The Catholic Encyclopedia that I quoted from above references a Vatican document that SPECIFICALLY mentions brandy which is distilled from grapes. They don’t say only “wine” may be added to wine. They say a “spirit of wine” which would be a spirit distilled from wine (such as brandy). So, either the Vatican made a mistake on the rule against distillation, or you did.

Do you happen to have an actual Church document that allows the adding of brandy to sacramental wine without making it unfit for Holy Communion? I cannot understand how a distilled spirit could in any way be considered “natural.”

 

[PoliSciProf]

An interesting thread about a subject I never thought about. (That’s what’s great about CAF). Can fortified wines such as sherry or port be used?

Does anyone know what the wine most likely used at the Last Supper was? Was it likely to be a dry wine, a sweet wine, a fortified wine or red or white or whatever? I have heard an occasional Protestant say unfermented wine (grape juice) was used at the Last Supper but this seems to be very farfetched indeed and probably reflects an extreme aversion to alcohol found in some denominations.

 

[Leibnitz]

An interesting thread about a subject I never thought about. (That’s what’s great about CAF). Can fortified wines such as sherry or port be used?

Does anyone know what the wine most likely used at the Last Supper was? Was it likely to be a dry wine, a sweet wine, a fortified wine or red or white or whatever? I have heard an occasional Protestant say unfermented wine (grape juice) was used at the Last Supper but this seems to be very farfetched indeed and probably reflects an extreme aversion to alcohol found in some denominations.

Fortified wines like the ones you mentioned are not acceptable for Holy Communion as they are not made by natural means (distillation.)

The wine at the Last Supper would likely have been red (requires less processing than white and far more commonly consumed by Jews), fairly sweet (based on the type of grapes and the youth of the wine) and certainly not fortified.

To suggest that they consumed grape juice not only runs contrary to the Bible, it also runs contrary to logic. Wine was produced back then largely as a way to preserve grape juice. Mr. Welch had not yet begun to pasteurize grape juice.

 

[Sure]

Fortified wines like the ones you mentioned are not acceptable for Holy Communion as they are not made by natural means (distillation.)

The wine at the Last Supper would likely have been red (requires less processing than white and far more commonly consumed by Jews), fairly sweet (based on the type of grapes and the youth of the wine) and certainly not fortified.

To suggest that they consumed grape juice not only runs contrary to the Bible, it also runs contrary to logic. Wine was produced back then largely as a way to preserve grape juice. Mr. Welch had not yet begun to pasteurize grape juice.

The source that I quoted is from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1906(I think?) I found it on newadvent.org. It references a document S. Romana et Univ. Inquis., 5 August, 1896 which I posted earlier on this thread.

The wine must be wine, but can have a spirit of wine added to it in order to stabilize it. The entire quote is contained earlier in the thread.

 

[Chatter163]

Many of the FSSP apostolates use white wine.

 

[Caesar]

I’ve seen both red and white used. Generally, in my experience, red wine is mostly used in the Novus Ordo with white wine used in the Tridentine Mass.