White's challenge about mortal sin

[fineca]

In a debate with Staples James White pointed out that the Catholic loses his salvation by committing mortal sin…and that the first and most important commandment is to love God with all our hearts, minds, strength etc…but we all know we fail to do that, and how can breaking the most important commandment not be a mortal sin? Thus we should all be in mortal sin and not saved…?

 

[Reepicheep]

Sounds legalistic to me. We don’t come up to the level of love of God we’re capable of. Still, how many people explicitely reject God?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Catholicism is a pilgrimage.
Thats why the commandments say you ‘must’ in a continuous sense, not you ‘must have already’ done xyz in order to be now saved.

 

[dal11]

He said the same thing on the debate with Jimmy Akin on the bible answer man. Jimmy Akin gave a great reply which I can’t remember at this time. Does anyone remember this debate and Jimmy’s answer?

 

[VociMike]

In a debate with Staples James White pointed out that the Catholic loses his salvation by committing mortal sin…and that the first and most important commandment is to love God with all our hearts, minds, strength etc…but we all know we fail to do that, and how can breaking the most important commandment not be a mortal sin? Thus we should all be in mortal sin and not saved…?

Fine, let him prove that this involves (a) grave matter (just asking “how can it not be grave?!” doesn’t cut it), (b) full knowledge, and (c) full consent.j

It’s his claim, let him offer proof for the particulars.

 

[Mijoy2]

It would seem to me the answer is in the difference between mortal sin and unrepented mortal sin. We repent of this sin. We are forgiven.

I’m not sure where the issue lies.

 

[RyanL]

1. If we were to fulfill the part about loving God maximally, we could not fulfill the second part about loving neighbor. God must have known this, but commanded us to do both. Therefore, either (1) Jesus didn’t know what He was talking about or (2) White’s understanding must be wrong. I’ll go with (2).
2. In order to have a mortal sin, there must be grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent of the will. If we are knowingly and intentionally not loving God above all others, it IS a mortal sin (idolatry). If we aren’t doing it intentionally, it’s not a mortal sin as it doesn’t fulfill the requirement about full consent of the will.

If we knowingly and intentionally love something MORE than God, or rather if we knowingly and intentionally place God second to something else, we ARE committing a mortal sin. Simply not exerting every erg of energy at every moment does not cut it as it doesn’t fulfill the requirements for mortal sin.

1. I love my wife more than anyone else on earth. Does that mean I direct all my attention towards thinking about her every second of the day? No, or else I couldn’t get anything done. I love her completely, and if there’s ever a choice between her and something else (not God), I choose her. That’s love. Love is a choice, it’s not a feeling.

James White knows the Catholic theology and the nature of love, but uses the example anyway. I’ll leave speculation on motives for this to you.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[VociMike]

BTW, does White think that every Christian is in constant, permanent sin (never mind mortal or venial) because they are disobeying this greatest commandment?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

In a debate with Staples James White pointed out that the Catholic loses his salvation by committing mortal sin…and that the first and most important commandment is to love God with all our hearts, minds, strength etc…but we all know we fail to do that, and how can breaking the most important commandment not be a mortal sin? Thus we should all be in mortal sin and not saved…?

First of all God doesnt require 100% perfection in what we do, thats a difference between God and us, as Robert Sungenis pointed out if a protestant wants to play the “God requires 100% perfect” card they have to admit that a person cant even display a faith capable of pleasing God either. That being said God does hold us responsible for what we are capable of doing, in the above case not loving God sufficiently is not the same as doubting, rather it is focused on the first few commands of the Ten Commandments, have no other gods and keep the Lord’s name Holy. Next comes our willful act in disobeying these commandments, lets say we turn to greed and our god becomes money, that is a mortal sin, or if we take the Lord’s name in vain, that is also a mortal sin. So yes it is possible to break the most important commandment but it isnt impossible to avoid breaking it.

BTW, does White think that every Christian is in constant, permanent sin (never mind mortal or venial) because they are disobeying this greatest commandment?

Actually in a way yes he does, those protestants who take on the “our works are filthy rags” mentality really think that we are walking talking sin machines. And just because its not murder or other grave sin doesnt matter because they consider all sin equal! They see the second we are not 100% focused on God we are sinning and that no person can avoid it, thats where the abominable concept that Jesus “covers” our sins before the Judge comes about.