Who is the Holy Spirt?

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The Old Testament gives us insight into the Father and the New Testament gives us insight into the Son. We have documented there words and have been granted a limmited knowledge of their “personalities”. But the Bible treats the Holy Spirit as almost an inanimate force. Can the Holy Spirt be thought of as a third “person” of the Trinity? Has history recorded any words from the Holy Spirit?
 
For a good explanation of the Holy Spirit read this from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is kinda long but read over it and it will help. If you have more questions, don’t hesitate to post them.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c3a8.htm

God Bless,
Matt
 
Thank you for the reference. This reinforces my perception of the spirit as more of a force and less of a personification. Issues like male vs female do not seem to apply.

Is it safe/moral to think of the Holy Spirit in terms of a force or a tool of the Father?
 
The Father and the Holy Spirit are spiritual beings. With that being said they do not have genders, however, they have been revealed to us in scripture as “He”. Christ however is man and God so we refer to him as he.

I don’t think you can look at the Holy Spirit as being a tool of the Father. For example, if I were to use a hammer, I would have power over it and the hammer would be subordinate to me. The Holy Spirit however is not subordinate to the Father, but they are coworkers. The Father, Son, and H.S. work together. One is not submissive to another.

I am not sure what you mean by calling the Holy Spirit a force? Clarification would really help me.

God Bless,
Matt
 
The Father and Son are both concious entities with individual wills even though the Son chooses to do the will of the father. They both have personalities and I can picture them both in heaven in humanoid form. Do these attributes apply to the Holy Spirit?

By force I can relate to the fictional concept in Star Wars of the “force” or the Asian religions myths of a bodily energy, yin and yan or whatever. I can also comprehend universal forces like gravity where all things in the universe act on each other.

I know the Holy Spirit is not a "force like in science, or science fiction. From the way the Holy Spirit is addressed in the Bible The Holy Spirit seems to fall somewhere between the two extremes I described above. Is that true? Could I look forward to one day having a conversation with the Holy Spirit in heaven?
 
Let’s see… the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I believe that the HS is the manifestation of the Love that is shared between God the Father and God the Son. I think of the Holy Spirit as the Love that God has for us working in our lives.
 
royal_archer said:
Thank you for the reference. This reinforces my perception of the spirit as more of a force and less of a personification. Issues like male vs female do not seem to apply.

Is it safe/moral to think of the Holy Spirit in terms of a force or a tool of the Father?
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Male and female have no role in this use of the word “person.” Theologically speaking, a “person” is an agent of action. God has one will, one intellect, one nature, one being - but three “persons” or “agents of action.” The Holy Spirit is one of those persons equal in dignity, majesty, power , etc.
The Father and Son are both concious entities with individual wills even though the Son chooses to do the will of the father. They both have personalities and I can picture them both in heaven in humanoid form. Do these attributes apply to the Holy Spirit?
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It sounds like you think like a Mormon not like a Catholic or a Christian. I recommend (very highly) Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners. Or Theology and Sanity. Though for 'beginners" they are not light weight overviews.
 
My pet peeve is the depiction of the Holy Spirit as a bird.

I’ve seen that icon of the Trinity as three male figures, and it supposedly is the last time (a couple hundred years ago) that the Holy Spirit was depicted that way.

At Jesus’ baptism, the gospel says that the Spirit descended on him like a dove. Even in that description, I don’t see a bird or visualize a bird. The scripture merely seems to use a simile to describe a supernatural event.

At Pentecost, which I have just recently learned rightly or wrongly was the celebration of God’s gift of the Law, the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples and there was the image of a flame above them. See? No bird.

The Holy Spirit is God, and that Godhead contains three manifestations of Father Son and Holy Ghost or Spirit. I like the icon with the three male figures as the best visualization of the idea.
 
royal_archer said:
The Father and Son are both concious entities with individual wills even though the Son chooses to do the will of the father. They both have personalities and I can picture them both in heaven in humanoid form. Do these attributes apply to the Holy Spirit?
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Yes, the Holy Spirit like the Father and the Son has an individual will as well. You can picture the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the humanoid form. In religious icons, they often are depicted as such. Theologically, however, the only person of the Trinity that has the humanoid form is Jesus Christ who is God and man. The Father and the Holy Spirit however never became man like Christ.
 
royal_archer said:
Thank you for the reference. This reinforces my perception of the spirit as more of a force and less of a personification. Issues like male vs female do not seem to apply.

Is it safe/moral to think of the Holy Spirit in terms of a force or a tool of the Father?
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Hello Archer,

I’m not able to give you technical, catechetical, canonical (sorry for the spelling) data and therefore can only refer you to the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed.

…I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life. Who proceeds from the Father and the Son, with the Father and the Son, He is worshipped and glorified and has spoken through the prophets…

Hope this helps.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
quasimodo said:
It sounds like you think like a Mormon not like a Catholic or a Christian. I recommend (very highly) Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners. Or Theology and Sanity. Though for 'beginners" they are not light weight overviews.
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I don’t understand the Mormon reference. My reference to individual wills was based on:

John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my
judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of
the Father which hath sent me.
 
For many years I have struggled with the Holy trinity: three are one. And it still does not make sense but at least I am more comfortable with it. I am now trying to get to know God better and feel I have some knowledge of the Father and the Son but I do not feel I have much understanding of who the Holy Spirit is. So far I understand that the Holy Spirit is the third entity of the Trinity and as such is God. I also understand the The Holy Spirit speaks to us through our hearts instead of through our ears / eyes.

The Father and the Son are presented very directly in the Bible while the Holy spirit seems to work behind the scenes.
 
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, and He has spoken through the prophets, and He speaks through the Church. The Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and Son, and the three make one God. I would suggest reading Theology for Beginners by Frank Sheed. Scott Hanh also has a good explanation in his book, First Comes Love.
 
royal_archer said:
For many years I have struggled with the Holy trinity: three are one. And it still does not make sense but at least I am more comfortable with it. I am now trying to get to know God better and feel I have some knowledge of the Father and the Son but I do not feel I have much understanding of who the Holy Spirit is. So far I understand that the Holy Spirit is the third entity of the Trinity and as such is God. I also understand the The Holy Spirit speaks to us through our hearts instead of through our ears / eyes.

The Father and the Son are presented very directly in the Bible while the Holy spirit seems to work behind the scenes.
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Laudatur Iesus Christus.

The Holy Spirit speaks constantly. His words can be easily read:

“He has spoken through the prophets.” Nicene Creed.

“The Holy Spirit [is] the principal author of the Sacred Scripture.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (1997), 304.

The Holy Spirit speaks as the co-author of each of the Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church. This authority is based on the pronouncement of the Council of Jerusalem, ““For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us . . .” (Acts (RSV) 15:28.)

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
When we speak about the Holy Spirit, we speak about the breath of God, breathing in us. The Greek word for “spirit” is pneuma, which means “breath.” We are seldom aware of our breathing. It is so essential for life that we only think about it when something is wrong with it.
The Spirit of God is like our breath. God’s spirit is more intimate to us than we are to ourselves. We might not often be aware of it, but without it we cannot live a “spiritual life.” It is the Holy Spirit of God who prays in us, who offers us the gifts of love, forgiveness, kindness, goodness, gentleness, peace, and joy. It is the Holy Spirit who offers us the life that death cannot destroy. Let us always pray: “Come, Holy Spirit, come.” (I found this on the web–I believe it is a site for a Catholic magazine–It’s really helped me to understand God’s Holy Spirit persona)
 
RAGGANDI said:
When we speak about the Holy Spirit, we speak about the breath of God, breathing in us. The Greek word for “spirit” is pneuma, which means “breath.” We are seldom aware of our breathing. It is so essential for life that we only think about it when something is wrong with it.
The Spirit of God is like our breath. God’s spirit is more intimate to us than we are to ourselves. We might not often be aware of it, but without it we cannot live a “spiritual life.” It is the Holy Spirit of God who prays in us, who offers us the gifts of love, forgiveness, kindness, goodness, gentleness, peace, and joy. It is the Holy Spirit who offers us the life that death cannot destroy. Let us always pray: “Come, Holy Spirit, come.” (I found this on the web–I believe it is a site for a Catholic magazine–It’s really helped me to understand God’s Holy Spirit persona)
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Laudatur Iesus Christus.

It is very jarring to use the word “it” to refer to the Holy Spirit. He is a person, not a “persona” or an “it.”

Is there some reason to use the impersonal pronoun? It is usually associated with things rather than people.

The word “persona” according to Websters does not seem to have any meaning which could be associated with the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

1: a character assumed by an author in a written work
2 aplural personas [New Latin, from Latin] : an individual’s social facade or front that especially in the analytic psychology of C. G. Jung reflects the role in life the individual is playing — compare anima b: the personality that a person (as an actor or politician) projects in public : image
3plural personae : a character in a fictional presentation (as a novel or play) —usually used in plural

merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=persona

Christ speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person:

And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, **whom **the world cannot receive, because it neither sees **him **nor knows him; you know him, for **he **dwells with you, and will be in you. (John (RSV) 14:16-17.)(Though the NAB drops the ball on the pronoun here. The Greek uses the personal pronoun.)

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, **whom **the Father will send in my name, **he **will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John (RSV) 14:26.) (The NAB gets it right here.)

But when the **Counselor **comes, **whom **I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, **who **proceeds from the Father, **he **will bear witness to me; (John (RSV) 15:26.) (The NAB gets it right here too.)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the **Counselor **will not come to you; but if I go, I will send **him **to you. (John (RSV) 16:7.) (The NAB gets this one right too.)

If one wants to get to know the Holy Spirit it might be best to pray the Liturgy of the Hours and attend the Holy Mass and other Sacraments frequently.

[F]ull and active participation [in the Liturgy] by all the people is . . . the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit, Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, 14.

Sacred liturgy . . . is to be considered as the primary and indispensable source of the truly Christian spirit. Vatican II, Optatam Totius, 16

Surely this “true Christian spirit” is where one meets the Paraclete.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
John_Hiner said:
It is very jarring to use the word “it” to refer to the Holy Spirit. He is a person, not a “persona” or an “it.”

Is there some reason to use the impersonal pronoun? It is usually associated with things rather than people.

The word “persona” according to Websters does not seem to have any meaning which could be associated with the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

1: a character assumed by an author in a written work
2 aplural personas [New Latin, from Latin] : an individual’s social facade or front that especially in the analytic psychology of C. G. Jung reflects the role in life the individual is playing — compare anima b: the personality that a person (as an actor or politician) projects in public : image
3plural personae : a character in a fictional presentation (as a novel or play) —usually used in plural

merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=persona

Christ speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person:

And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, **whom **the world cannot receive, because it neither sees **him **nor knows him; you know him, for **he **dwells with you, and will be in you. (John (RSV) 14:16-17.)(Though the NAB drops the ball on the pronoun here. The Greek uses the personal pronoun.)

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, **whom **the Father will send in my name, **he **will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John (RSV) 14:26.) (The NAB gets it right here.)

But when the **Counselor **comes, **whom **I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, **who **proceeds from the Father, **he **will bear witness to me; (John (RSV) 15:26.) (The NAB gets it right here too.)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the **Counselor **will not come to you; but if I go, I will send **him **to you. (John (RSV) 16:7.) (The NAB gets this one right too.)

If one wants to get to know the Holy Spirit it might be best to pray the Liturgy of the Hours and attend the Holy Mass and other Sacraments frequently.

[F]ull and active participation [in the Liturgy] by all the people is . . . the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit, Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilium, 14.

Sacred liturgy . . . is to be considered as the primary and indispensable source of the truly Christian spirit. Vatican II, Optatam Totius, 16

Surely this “true Christian spirit” is where one meets the Paraclete.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
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I stand corrected. I can assure you that I know the Holy Spirit is not an “it”. I merely copied and pasted something I found on another website. He is truly within each of us. I am sorry if I have offended Him (and you) by my (and the original author’s) poor choice of words. I should have used the word “entity” or “Nature” instead of “persona”.
 
RAGGANDI said:
I stand corrected. I can assure you that I know the Holy Spirit is not an “it”. I merely copied and pasted something I found on another website. He is truly within each of us. I am sorry if I have offended Him (and you) by my (and the original author’s) poor choice of words. I should have used the word “entity” or “Nature” instead of “persona”.
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Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Dear RAGGANDI:

Thank you for your gracious post. I did not suspect any malice in the previous post. However, I did appreciate the opportunity to defend the honor of the Holy Spirit.

As a child, I felt closest to the Holy Spirit. I grew up surrounded with images of His work in a parish named after Him.

I think the safest word is “Person.” This is the English formulation of the Church’s dogma: The Holy Trinity is one Substance in three Persons. This is an English rendering of the dogma formulated in Latin. An English rendering of the Greek equivalent might be: The Holy Trinity is one Being in three Subsistences.

This is a mystery. That means that we have some clues that we can see, but they point beyond themselves and we are left to contemplate what is unseen based on what can be seen, but points into the unknown. The clues we have about the Holy Spirit need to be carefully maintained, because the mystery is so great.

Here is my attempt to make sense of what we know from the Church’s teachings:

If I may wax poetic: The Father loves the Son with total, *self-donative *love. The Son accepts the Father’s self, and loves the Father in turn, with total self-donative love. In accepting the love of the other (the other’s very self), the Father and the Son are themselves. The Holy Spirit is the uncreated and infinite expression of this mutual love between the Father and the Son; the Father and the Son are simultaneously and absolutely giving and accepting; in accepting each other the Father and the Son are themselves; in their mutual and absolute self-giving the Holy Spirit is; in His self-giving love to them, the Father and the Son abide eternally in the Holy Spirit.

It is this three-fold giving and accepting, this three-fold self-sustaining love, which is the eternal being and life of God. If any of the three Persons were absent, God’s life would not be self-sustaining, because giving would lead to loss; if any of the three Persons was a mere force or thing, then the return of self to the others would become mechanical and “god” would not be alive and the exchange would not be love. Therefore, each person of the Most Holy Trinity is a Person who absolutely, self-donatively gives Himself to and accepts the others. This is the One God in three Persons, whose self is one.

That is the furthest I have got in thinking about the Most Holy Trinity. But, it is invigorating every time I think it through.

If anyone sees any problems with this formulation, or has any corrections, suggestions for improvement, or clarifications, please let me know.

Thanks for the opportunity to give some attention to my childhood Friend.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
NotWorthy said:
Let’s see… the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. I believe that the HS is the manifestation of the Love that is shared between God the Father and God the Son. I think of the Holy Spirit as the Love that God has for us working in our lives.
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Well Said.

I came to a somewhat similar idea a while back.
We know that God is one and there is no other.
When man was created, he “walked with God, but then came the fall, when man becmae seperated from God. God’s Holy Spirit was, in a sense, withdrawn at that time.

Later God returned in the frame of a human, but not just in human form, but in being fully human and yet carrying the full Spirit and Divinity of God. In this way God both returned His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, to man and also retaught us how to “Walk with God”. This is what Jesus did in His teaching, but Jesus Himself told us that He had to go to his father in Heaven so that God’s spirit could be poured out.

Finally God poured out His spirit to those hearts prepared in prayer and suplication. That Spirit could not come unless Jesus first left. Why? The reason for this is simple and twofold. First is that Jesus, when He came, brought back the fullness of the Spirit with Him and so the whole of the Spirit was within Him. Second is that, so long as Jesus remained physically on earth, All men would look outside themselves to Jesus for healing teaching, understanding, etc. Man would not look from his own heart to God, but rather to a “magic man” who could heal and teach and save.

I mean no disrespect to our Lord by any of this and believe it to be a poor “understanding”, of that which cannot be fully understood.

Peace
Jesus
 
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