Who remembers the Mass in English before the 1970 ICEL translation?

[puzzleannie]

I also remember the uproar when the first edition of the Roman missal was introduced in the 70s–largely without the catechesis that has accompanied this current revision of same–as it was one huge reason my parents left the church for a while. It just put the lid on all the intervening changes–destruction of church interiors etc–for them and a lot of their generation.

 

[melt7355]

I, too, am interested in how the Creed was read back then. Did we say the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed? The reason I ask is that I have memorized the Apostles Creed at some point, so much so, that after thirty years of being away from the Church I still remember it. Does anyone know?

 

[centurionguard]

I also remember the uproar when the first edition of the Roman missal was introduced in the 70s–largely without the catechism that has accompanied this current revision of same–as it was one huge reason my parents left the church for a while. It just put the lid on all the intervening changes–destruction of church interiors etc–for them and a lot of their generation.

Are you speaking about the Roman Missal and Lectionary based on the Jerusalem biblical translation?

I thought there was an English Roman Missal put out in 1967

 

[ProVobis]

I remember a lot of the Mass text that we used when it was first translated into English in the '60s. It was very much like the new translation. However, I can’t remember if the word “consubstantial” was used in the Creed as opposed to “one in being”. Does anyone remember? Does anyone have an old missal to check this out? I was 7 years old and didn’t own a missal.

I really can’t figure out why some people are having a cow over this one word. Evidently, it is completely ruining their day.

There wasn’t any standarization in the English translations but the word “consubstantial” appeared in a 1867 Latin-English handmissal.

mediafire.com/?06jjdqdvw1nvcs8

 

[SMHW]

My St. Joseph’s missal (this was from the so-called 1965 missal) says “of one substance with the Father”.

 

[Chatter163]

My St. Joseph’s missal (this was from the so-called 1965 missal) says “of one substance with the Father”.

Yes, that is what was in the “1965 missal.”

 

[Sunbreak]

I remember the Mass in English before the 1970 version. At first, not all the Mass was in English. It was a transitional mix of Latin and English. I have an old missal where I marked what parts we were supposed to say in English and what parts were still in Latin. I also have a little foldout that had the same thing printed - the parts we were supposed to say in English. When the Mass changes first occurred, the priest did not greet the people with “The Lord be with you.” The Mass began in Latin "In Nomine Patris…"etc., followed by more Latin prayers until you got to the Kyrie. The Kyrie was in English. The Gloria was in English and almost identical to what this newest version is. The Nicene Creed’s first sentence was said in English by the priest. He said “I believe in one God.” Then the people said the rest. The new words have some similarities to what was used in English before 1970 but not totally. We didn’t use the word consubstantial even then.

Anyway, the short answer is that the new English responses are somewhat similar, but not entirely.

 

[Vico]

For comparison, this is an online verison of the 1965 Missale Romanum:

coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

And the rubrics changes 1964, 1967:

divinumofficium.com/www/missa/rubrics1967.html

 

[iloveangels]

Who remembers the Mass in English before the 1970 ICEL translation? Now that we are using the latest translation… Is it easier to transition since some of the responses are kind of like the way they used to be?

Yes. I went to Catholic school in 1962-3 before any of the changes and I remember the Latin Mass. I was not Catholic at the time, and entered the school knowing nothing about the Catholic faith. *

But I had a St. Joseph school missal, bought with my other school books, and it had Latin on one side and English on the facing page. I learned both simultaneously. I thought then that the mass was very beautiful and was happy to learn it.

These changes we’re getting now are very familiar to me. They’re almost exactly the same as the ones in that missal, which were direct but unofficial translations.

[Incidentally, some of us oldsters will think both languages at the same time because of those old missals with the two languages side by side, and we don’t have troubles understanding why the responses are what they are. That’s just what it says in both languages. ]

The incomprehensible thing was how they came up with the last translation we just finished with. It sounded quite a lot different.*

 

[andrewstx]

Has the english Mass always used you instead of thee?

I converted from Anglicanism, and always preffered the Old English. I think it is more reverent to call God thee instead of you.

I wish we could go back to thee and O Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

I won’t go back to the Anglican church, but I would still like less pedestrian english or Latin if it was done in the diocese.

BTW the anglicans have gone to “and also with you” as well. Any revision they do will be more liberal than present including not calling God HIM. Just God and Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.

 

[iloveangels]

I really can’t figure out why some people are having a cow over this one word. Evidently, it is completely ruining their day.

Because, at least in part, apparently we have a bunch of latent Arians who want to think of Christ only as their (all-too-human; only too human?) buddy. And “consubstantial with the Father” is the language we use to refute Arianism.

newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm

Christ is True God and True Man. Both.
You’d think this wouldn’t be a problem since it was settled at the Nicene council in 325AD. But apparently we’re not so hot at history anymore.

We probably do have some people who just don’t like big words, but I don’t think that’s all of them by far. Otherwise they’d have trouble with words like coordinator and precipitation, and I don’t see that happening anywhere.

 

[ProVobis]

We probably do have some people who just don’t like big words…

Actually you may be onto something there. Out of the 500 most used words in English, 400 of them are one-syllable. So it would make sense that the average Anglophone would have trouble with words, especially new ones, over two or three syllables. My guess is, however, that he would be able to pick up the archaic ones, like thee, thou, spake, brake, begat, drave, shope, etc., a lot faster. But I’ll leave that matter over to the linguists to settle.

 

[corsair]

I vaguely remember that some parts were still in latin and that there were sanctus bells and the communion paten. But receiving standing on the tongue. It seemed that there were weekly minor changes and lots of confusing practicing the new hymns before Mass.

I, also remember the hippie guitarist that was hired. He had real bad B.O. and long hair.

Things just degenerated on a weekly basis. Amnesia would have been welcomed.

 

[Vico]

I vaguely remember that some parts were still in latin and that there were sanctus bells and the communion paten. But receiving standing on the tongue. It seemed that there were weekly minor changes and lots of confusing practicing the new hymns before Mass.

I, also remember the hippie guitarist that was hired. He had real bad B.O. and long hair.

Things just degenerated on a weekly basis. Amnesia would have been welcomed.

I was at a Rock Mass once only. There were electric guitars and drums up near the altar. Yes, amnesia would help.

 

[Digitonomy]

When one recalls the NAB was given to us by those same fine folks at ICEL one can only hope for the continued revision of that text to some semblance of the original languages.

What is the link between ICEL and CCD?

 

[SMHW]

Has the english Mass always used you instead of thee?

I converted from Anglicanism, and always preffered the Old English. I think it is more reverent to call God thee instead of you.

I wish we could go back to thee and O Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

Good question. At least in the later years of English language Masses prior to the implementation of the 1970 Missal the words You and Your were used rather than Thou, Thee, and Thy. (The exception would be the Lord’s Prayer …which never really stopped being an exception.) The Angus Dei was as follows:
Lamb of God, Who take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, Who take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, Who take away the sins of the world, grant us peace.

BTW the anglicans have gone to “and also with you” as well. Any revision they do will be more liberal than present including not calling God HIM. Just God and Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.

I have wondered what other Christian sects will do. I attended a Lutheran service with a boyfriend in the late 1970s (about 9 years after the Catholic implementation of the 1970 ICEL translation.) It just happened to be the day this Lutheran parish implemented the ICEL translation. It was kind of amusing that the lone Catholic in the room was the only one who knew the responses. All the Lutherans wanted to say, “And with your spirit,” and the pastor would stop and make them repeat the (then) new words. I wonder if they will again follow the Catholic lead.

Does anyone know if their were non-Catholics who worked on the new translation?

 

[SMHW]

I have wondered what other Christian sects will do. I attended a Lutheran service with a boyfriend in the late 1970s (about 9 years after the Catholic implementation of the 1970 ICEL translation.) It just happened to be the day this Lutheran parish implemented the ICEL translation.

This should have been ICET rather than ICEL.

 

[liturgyluver]

Has the english Mass always used you instead of thee?

I converted from Anglicanism, and always preffered the Old English. I think it is more reverent to call God thee instead of you.

I wish we could go back to thee and O Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

I won’t go back to the Anglican church, but I would still like less pedestrian english or Latin if it was done in the diocese.

BTW the anglicans have gone to “and also with you” as well. Any revision they do will be more liberal than present including not calling God HIM. Just God and Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier.

Some Anglican parishes still use traditional language. Many for evensong where the 1662 prayer book is routinely used, but some also opt for the option of traditional language in their Sung Eucharists. I agree with you that the traditional language feels more reverent.

 

[Digitonomy]

I think it is more reverent to call God thee instead of you.

I guess there are many interpretations of reverence, but if we equate reverence with formality, the familiar thee or thou is less reverent than the formal you.