Who shouldn't be saved?

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I have a scriptural question that’s a real stumbling block for me, and I’ve not found an adequate answer anywhere. This quote is from Mark 4: 11-13:

And when he was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that ‘they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’”

My question is this: What is Jesus’ meaning here? He seems to clearly be saying that there are some people he wants to hide his teaching from IN ORDER that they will not inadvertently figure it out and so be saved. Who are these people that Jesus doesn’t want to be saved? Why?

Thanks.
 
I think Jesus’ point is that we must come inside the Kingdom in order to perceive and understand so that they might be converted and forgiven. And this makes sense: it is through the grace of the Church (the seed of the Kingdom) that one is converted and forgiven; you must in some sense (visibly or invisibly) be inside the Church/Kingdom to be saved. Those who remain outside cannot perceive or understand.
 
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redactor:
My question is this: What is Jesus’ meaning here? He seems to clearly be saying that there are some people he wants to hide his teaching from IN ORDER that they will not inadvertently figure it out and so be saved. Who are these people that Jesus doesn’t want to be saved?
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In the comment to that passage in the NAB, it states, “These verses are to be viewed against their background in 3, 6.22 concerning the unbelief and opposition Jesus encountered in his ministry. It is against this background that the distinction in Jesus’ method becomes clear of presenting the kingdom to the disbelieving crowd in one manner and to the disciples in another. To the former it is presented in parables and the truth remains hidden; for the latter the parable is interpreted and the mystery is partially revealed because of their faith; see the notes on Mt 13, 11 and 13,13.”

Jesus did not choose to completely reveal his mission to all at the same time in the same way. He certainly wanted all men to come to Him to be saved.
 
With regard to Mark 4: 11-13, I believe this is an example of what has been called a “discipline of secrecy” in the NT Church. Some things need to be revealed at the right time as giving “solid food” instead of “milk” may not be received favorably. In short, they were not prepared for solid food.

I don’t believe Jesus wanted to keep things secret so they could not be EVER saved, but so their present misunderstandings (likely to occur without the context of teaching the twelve had) would not cause them to be further “offended” in Christ Jesus.
 
The “discipline of secrecy” was continued by the apostles and their successors in the early Church while much persecution continued to persists. For example, St. Cyril’s (b.315, d. 386)Catechism was “eyes only” teaching for those who had sufficiently progressed in their catechesis towards baptism, or for those already baptized.

In the preface to the reader, it states:
These Catechetical Lectures for those who are to be enlightened thou mayest lend to candidates for Baptism, and to believers who are already baptized, to read, but give not at all, neither to Catechumens, nor to any others who are not Christians, as thou shalt answer to the Lord. And if thou make a copy, write this in the beginning, as in the sight of the Lord. (*Catechetical Lectures of St. Cyril, *preface)
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You can read more about the “discipline of secrecy” here:

Catholic Encyclopedia - "Discipline of the Secret"
newadvent.org/cathen/05032a.htm
Here’s an excerpt:
A theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith.
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… The origin of the custom must be looked for in the recorded words of Christ: “Give not that which holy to dogs; neither cast your pearls before swine; lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you” (Matt., vii, 6), while the practice in Apostolic times is sufficiently vouched for by St. Paul’s assurance that he fed the Corinthians “as . . . little ones in Christ”, giving them “milk to drink, not meat”, because they were not yet able to bear it (I Cor., iii, 1-2). With this passage we may compare also Heb., v. 12-14, where the same illustration is used, and it is declared that “solid food is for the perfect; for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.”

… the discipline was growing more strict all through the second and third centuries on account of the pressure of persecution, and that, when persecution was at last relaxed, the need for reserve was felt at first, while the Church was still surrounded by hostile Paganism, to be increased rather than diminished. After the fifth or sixth century, when Christianity was thoroughly established and secure, the need of such a discipline was no longer felt, and it passed rapidly away.
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Thanks for the thoughts, folks. I understand your points, I think–about the secrecy in the early church, about the necessity to, in some sense, be in the fold in order to be saved. But the Marcan passage seems harsher, more stark than those interpretations imply–and Jesus’ words seem very out of character to me. The passage clearly says that he hopes certain people don’t hear him so that they won’t be saved. I will study over your responses some more, and follow up on the references given. Thanks again for the responses.
 
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Mark 4

The Parable of the Sower

1Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3"Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times."
9Then Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[1] "
13Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14The farmer sows the word. 15Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop–thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown.”

Because the verses you single out are a parable in themselves… you need to read the verses before to understand the verses you mention…
 
space ghost:
Because the verses you single out are a parable in themselves… you need to read the verses before to understand the verses you mention…
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Hi. Thanks for the note, and for quoting the parable. I don’t understand what you mean, though. The quote I’m asking about is not in the parable, it’s Jesus talking about parables and about the various people who might hear and understand them. The troubling line is this: “…otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.” And I don’t find it any less troubling even when I keep the whole context in mind.
 
if you read from verse 13 on… i see that as his statement as some will not here because of their weak nature or luke warmness, in other words, i don’t see this as there are people that he is trying to hide the truth from but as some can be easily robbed of their salvation due to a weak faith…
 
Hmm. It just doesn’t read that way to me–i.e., he doesn’t seem to be talking about people who willfully will not listen to him (although, yes, he does describe those kinds of people in the parable about the seed), but about people whom he doesn’t want to hear him. Maybe it’s just a poor translation. Thanks.
 
: "…otherwise they might turn and be forgiven

It not that Jesus doesn’t want someone not to be forgiven but how I understand it as the person who listen and doesn’t want to change to be forgiven. Example you tell someone that drinking and driving is wrong and you could kill someone else. The person who heard this ignores the advice and then goes out, drinks,drives and gets into an accident and a fatality occurs. He heard that it was wrong and ignore it and it happened. They know that sinning is wrong but refuse to turn and be forgiven I hope this helps.
Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory be Forever!
 
redactor,

I did a little research in several commentaries I have. All who commented on this passage indicated essentially the same thing. Jesus was speaking of his audiences’ spiritual blindness and hardness of heart. This is what caused the parables to be hidden from them, not his wish to hide anything from them. He can not desire anyone to be lost.

David
 
redactor,

Great question. I also agree that the explanations given so far seem to be insufficient. Just my wild guess without research, but could it have to do with election?

My New Jeruslam Bible says this (in itailcs)…

they may look and look, but never percieve; listen and listen, but never understand; to avoid changing their ways and being healed.

The itailcs quote Isaiah 6:9-10.

Thanks
Chris G
 
Hi ChrisG

Ah…now that’s an answer that seems at least to address the actual phrase that Jesus is using. I don’t know anything about doctrines concerning election, other than that I THINK it’s not an RC concept, really. Right?
Yes, Jesus is quoting Isaiah, but the phrase still says what it says. Perhaps this phrase is put in Jesus’ mouth by the evangelist, who was trying to show his contemporary audience that Jesus really was the Messiah? If you think of it that way, it loses some of the harshness it has when you’re thinking it’s actually something Jesus said.
 
Hi redactor,

Election is a Catholic doctrine. I won’t even try to explain it, I would probably get it wrong. Here is a short article (too short in my opinion). Also remember that this article is from the 1905 Catholic Encyclopedia, there is more recent scholarship…
newadvent.org/cathen/05374a.htm.

It is referred to in the Mass when the priest says “a holy nation, a people set apart” so it is really a fundamental precept of the Church. From what I have read, Election theology is ultimately a mystery that nobody can explain, even St Paul doesn’t explain it, he just says it is Gods right to save some people and not save others.

You bring up my favorite subject of difficult Bible passages and people putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I have several specifics mind, maybe you do also. Hope to continue our discussion,

Chris G
 
Thanks for the link to the encyclopedia article. I guess I was thinking you meant election in a way more closely aligned to predestination or something like that–i.e., the idea that there are plenty of folks who aren’t going to be saved no matter what they do or believe. The Mark 4 quote I started this thread with would make more sense if we believed in predestination. I posted this same question over in the Ask an Apologist forum a few days ago, but so far they haven’t addressed it.
 
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redactor:
But the Marcan passage seems harsher, more stark than those interpretations imply–and Jesus’ words seem very out of character to me.
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God is NOT a jerk. therefore, when i have come across something that seems to indicate that He is, i recognize that i must be getting it wrong.
 
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