Who was more "right;" Aristotle or Plato?

[EphelDuath]

In terms of political and ethical theories, who was more “right,” Plato or Aristotle?

 

[Sideline]

I voted Aristotle, but I would have worded it, “less wrong”.

 

[RWMorris]

I voted Aristotle, but I would have worded it, “less wrong”.

I agree. Aristotle’s philosophy was superior, but just barely. They both had views on women, slavery, and individual rights that just don’t measure up in a modern sense.

 

[RobbyS]

I agree. Aristotle’s philosophy was superior, but just barely. They both had views on women, slavery, and individual rights that just don’t measure up in a modern sense.

Both are hard to judge from this distance. Each has been so interpreted in Judeo-Christian terms that I find it hard to understand where either is coming from. Further, in the case of Plato, Plotinus offers another layer.

 

[Hubriss]

Plato was more of an idealist, Aristotle was a realist. So, Aristotle!

 

[CapIV]

Aristotle’s basic philosophy of reason and observation is far more important than Plato. And Aristotle was Thomas Aquinas’ primary influence. Critics like to point to Aristotle’s views on slavery and women as some sort of ad hominem. But they aren’t really too far from the way most people think today. For example, women are naturally drawn towards certain activity, as are men. Aristotle went to far when he identified women as only half human, but it is not unreasonable to observe that women seem to be weaker in certain ways than men. Just as men in certain ways seem to be weaker than women.

Plato believed men and women contained the same genderless soul, therefore meaning they are both equal by the way.

Plato also wanted to abolish the family. He was a freak.

 

[PoliSciProf]

For my purposes, Aristotle is more important. But, Plato is much more fun to read.

 

[Hastrman]

They both had views on women, slavery, and individual rights that just don’t measure up in a modern sense.

Yeah, they just don’t measure up to the era of Girls Gone Wild, abortion on demand, and wall-to-wall hardcore porn–which is supposed to be “liberating” for women!

And, of course, slavery is so vastly inferior to libertarian capitalism–wait, no it’s not. Slave masters were legally responsible for their slaves, at least, and there’s no pretense that the slaves are really free men, the way there is with proletarians (read, slaves with no job security).

Plato and Aristotle lived under the exact same conditions as we do (if not slightly better), they just didn’t delude themselves about them.

 

[Sideline]

For my purposes, Aristotle is more important. But, Plato is much more fun to read.

I would agree with that too. Aristotle is about as fun to read as the telephone directory. The Republic is much more interesting, and it’s even entertaining in parts.

 

[Sideline]

Yeah, they just don’t measure up to the era of Girls Gone Wild, abortion on demand, and wall-to-wall hardcore porn–which is supposed to be “liberating” for women!

I know, it’s nearly impossible to find a woman today who hasn’t been in a pornographic movie or had an abortion. Unless you actually go outside and look for one.

You have a rather skewed and extremist view of what it means to be a woman today.

And, of course, slavery is so vastly inferior to libertarian capitalism–wait, no it’s not. Slave masters were legally responsible for their slaves, at least, and there’s no pretense that the slaves are really free men, the way there is with proletarians (read, slaves with no job security).

So… you would rather be a slave than have a job? You would rather be owned by someone else, rather than not have job security? You really wouldn’t mind having someone else decide what body parts you get to keep? Which of your family members they would sell or if you would even have family members?

Plato and Aristotle lived under the exact same conditions as we do (if not slightly better), they just didn’t delude themselves about them.

You haven’t read about that era much have you?

 

[Hastrman]

I know, it’s nearly impossible to find a woman today who hasn’t been in a pornographic movie or had an abortion. Unless you actually go outside and look for one.

You have a rather skewed and extremist view of what it means to be a woman today.

No, but I do know that Plato and Aristotle’s era would have beheaded Hugh Hefner, while we make him a millionaire. I don’t suffer from the delusion that societies ever advance in morals; they just change the terms in which they screw everyone.

We were discussing the view of women of modern society, vs. ancient Greek society. Yes, the Greeks had a dim view of women. But they didn’t say they were empowering women, at the very moment every force in their popular culture was working to turn women into sex-objects, wage slaves, and indoctrinated dupes.

So… you would rather be a slave than have a job? You would rather be owned by someone else, rather than not have job security? You really wouldn’t mind having someone else decide what body parts you get to keep? Which of your family members they would sell or if you would even have family members?

First off, slavery in the ancient world is a very complicated topic that no modern person is really capable of dealing with, unless they very carefully excise every scrap of the emotional baggage of the Civil War.

Second, as a person who actually understands economics (define proletarian, if you want to argue with me), I see no differene between slavery and capitalism other than job security. The things you’re talking about are abuses of the slave system, and were not present in most slave systems. Again, you’re thinking of the worst parts of America’s slave system, not the ancient one.

Abusus usum non tollit.

You haven’t read about that era much have you?

Not much–just more than you, obviously, and in primary sources. How much Cicero you read?

 

[Sideline]

No, but I do know that Plato and Aristotle’s era would have beheaded Hugh Hefner, while we make him a millionaire. I don’t suffer from the delusion that societies ever advance in morals; they just change the terms in which they screw everyone.

Every part of this statement is incorrect. There is ample ancient pornography, and absolutely no evidence to support that the makers of this material were routinely beheaded.

We were discussing the view of women of modern society, vs. ancient Greek society. Yes, the Greeks had a dim view of women. But they didn’t say they were empowering women, at the very moment every force in their popular culture was working to turn women into sex-objects, wage slaves, and indoctrinated dupes.

What a strange view of the modern world you have. Women today don’t live in an idylic paradise it is true, but to say that “every force in their popular culture” was working against them is incredibly selective and sensationalistic.

First off, slavery in the ancient world is a very complicated topic that no modern person is really capable of dealing with, unless they very carefully excise every scrap of the emotional baggage of the Civil War.

You know that there are about 6 billion more non-Americans in the world than Americans don’t you? Just because most Americans think that slavery started and ended in their country doesn’t mean that the rest of us think the same way. I was basing my assesment of the ancient world on the ancient world, not on slavery in the United States. Seems like you have more baggage about that than I do.

Second, as a person who actually understands economics (define proletarian, if you want to argue with me), I see no differene between slavery and capitalism other than job security. The things you’re talking about are abuses of the slave system, and were not present in most slave systems. Again, you’re thinking of the worst parts of America’s slave system, not the ancient one.

Once again, I’m not. Actually read about how slaves were treated in the ancient world, comrade. Also, you might want to drop the idealized notion that abuses are the exception rather than the rule.
Although it was true that many slaves were well cared for, many more were not. Slaves could practically become part of the family, or they could be worked or beaten to death by on their masters whim.

Abusus usum non tollit.

Hey, you want to be used go ahead. I would rather have choices, presonally.

Not much–just more than you, obviously, and in primary sources. How much Cicero you read?

Enough to know that he was Roman and not Greek, and enough to know that the cultures had differences.

 

[ateista]

Second, as a person who actually understands economics (define proletarian, if you want to argue with me), I see no differene between slavery and capitalism other than job security.

Have you read Henry Hazlitt’s “Economics in One Lesson”? I would be delighted to see your opinion about that.

Minor stuff like “freedom” to choose another job does not count for much, does it? Minor freedom, like retraining if your particular chosen profession goes out of style is irrelevant? Where do you live, my friend?

Care to quote passages from the Bible about how those ancient “semi-slaves” were supposed to be treated? When beating not resulting in death, only incapacitating for three days was acceptable? When your slave’s child was yours to sell off? After all you believe that the Bible is the unchanging, absolute word of the Almighty, don’t you? Give me your quotes, please!

“Indentured servitude” was somewhat different from “real” slavery, in the sense that after having served your “time” you were supposed to be set free, and that your master was obligated by law not to treat you too bad… but I would choose my free, unlimited choices over your “job security” any time.

But I like my freedom to make my own mistakes and learn from them. This is called being an adult, making one’s choices and accepting responsibilities for them. Novel concept, eh?

 

[Hastrman]

Every part of this statement is incorrect. There is ample ancient pornography, and absolutely no evidence to support that the makers of this material were routinely beheaded.

It was all kept secret, though, and covered around by taboos. A man like Hugh Hefner, mass-producing it and trying to remove the taboos, would have been killed for corrupting the young.

What a strange view of the modern world you have. Women today don’t live in an idylic paradise it is true, but to say that “every force in their popular culture” was working against them is incredibly selective and sensationalistic.

Go read some HPV stats, and tell me it’s sensationalistic.

You know that there are about 6 billion more non-Americans in the world than Americans don’t you? Just because most Americans think that slavery started and ended in their country doesn’t mean that the rest of us think the same way. I was basing my assesment of the ancient world on the ancient world, not on slavery in the United States. Seems like you have more baggage about that than I do.

More like 5.6. I simply assumed your opinion was based on American slavery, because I thought anyone who’d read about the ancient world would understand how that system worked, and be mature enough not to read their own culture’s ideas into them. I’m sorry for giving you too much credit.

Once again, I’m not. Actually read about how slaves were treated in the ancient world, comrade. Also, you might want to drop the idealized notion that abuses are the exception rather than the rule.
Although it was true that many slaves were well cared for, many more were not. Slaves could practically become part of the family, or they could be worked or beaten to death by on their masters whim.

The fact the system worked, shows abuses were the exception, not the rule. No society could have worked otherwise. Tell me, how much do you know about anthropology?

Hey, you want to be used go ahead. I would rather have choices, presonally.

I was referring to the (ab)use of the slave system, obviously. As any literate person would have known.

Enough to know that he was Roman and not Greek, and enough to know that the cultures had differences.

But not in their slave system, particularly–all Indo-Europeans essentially had the same one, and it was similar to that of Mesopotamia and the Levant.

 

[Hastrman]

Minor stuff like “freedom” to choose another job does not count for much, does it? Minor freedom, like retraining if your particular chosen profession goes out of style is irrelevant? Where do you live, my friend?

Leonine contract–you work for one of a few masters or you starve. Where’s the freedom in that?

And I live in Flagstaff Arizona, the town with no economy, thanks to the proletarian model–there are no employers here. So yeah, I know what I’m talking about.

Care to quote passages from the Bible about how those ancient “semi-slaves” were supposed to be treated? When beating not resulting in death, only incapacitating for three days was acceptable? When your slave’s child was yours to sell off? After all you believe that the Bible is the unchanging, absolute word of the Almighty, don’t you? Give me your quotes, please!

I don’t care how the barbarians God happened to like treated their slaves; we were discussing slavery in the ancient Greek world.

“Indentured servitude” was somewhat different from “real” slavery, in the sense that after having served your “time” you were supposed to be set free, and that your master was obligated by law not to treat you too bad… but I would choose my free, unlimited choices over your “job security” any time.

Unlimited choices?

Forgive me, but there is no employment market in my town, and I am ineligible for my mother’s insurance. I also have a chronic disease. So until you’ve lived through that, don’t talk to me about “unlimited choices.”

But I like my freedom to make my own mistakes and learn from them. This is called being an adult, making one’s choices and accepting responsibilities for them. Novel concept, eh?

What laughable conceit! In the ancient world, you made your choices, and accepted responsibility for them–including selling yourself into slavery to pay off your debts.

No modern person, whose country has “welfare” and “social security”, and whose culture does not practice ritual suicide, even knows the meaning of the words “take responsibility”.

 

[Feanaro]

I voted for Aristotle but have to admit that I haven’t read a whole lot of Plato’s writings. What I have read of Aristotle however has been instantly more appealing. Also, since I’m a huge fan of St. Thomas Aquinas, I also tend to lean more towards Aristotle.

I only wish that Socrates was a third option. Even though he never wrote anything down (neither did Jesus by the way) I still may have voted for him.

 

[Sideline]

It was all kept secret, though, and covered around by taboos. A man like Hugh Hefner, mass-producing it and trying to remove the taboos, would have been killed for corrupting the young.

Your grasp of ancient culture doesn’t inspire me with confidence in your assertions.

Go read some HPV stats, and tell me it’s sensationalistic.

That’s the best response that you could come up with? Your weighting of information is highly skewed.

More like 5.6. I simply assumed your opinion was based on American slavery, because I thought anyone who’d read about the ancient world would understand how that system worked, and be mature enough not to read their own culture’s ideas into them. I’m sorry for giving you too much credit.

You are right that I rounded off the figure of 6 billion, but guessed wrong in which direction I rounded it. There are about 6.6 billion people in the world, and a little over 300 million Americans. That puts the number of non-Americans closer to 6.3 billion. Look it up if you don’t believe me.

The utility of an instituition has nothing to do with the desirability of the system. The persistence and prevelance of Ayruvedic medicine doesn’t actually mean that it works. It just means it is congruant with the belief system of the people who ascribe to it.

The fact the system worked, shows abuses were the exception, not the rule. No society could have worked otherwise. Tell me, how much do you know about anthropology?

I only have a B.A. in it, why? Abuses of systems are the norm in many cultures. Cheating is often instituionalized.

But all of that is really irrelevant. Many cultures were able to successfully intigrate a system of human sacrifice into their society, but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t awful for the people who were sacrificed.

I was referring to the (ab)use of the slave system, obviously. As any literate person would have known.

I understood your quote just fine.

But not in their slave system, particularly–all Indo-Europeans essentially had the same one, and it was similar to that of Mesopotamia and the Levant.

Let’s review.

1. I asked if you had read about the era much.
2. You claimed to have read more than I have.
3. You asked me how much Cicero I had read.

I maintain that it is odd that you would cite a Roman from the 1st century B.C. to establish your knowlege of Athens in the 4th century. This is like saying that you are familiar with modern Canadian culture because you’ve read Poor Richard’s Almanac.

 

[Hastrman]

I’ve also read Aristotle, Plato, several pre-Socratics, and Homer. And lots of the Roman philosophers, and secondary sources dealing with same.

I’ve also read several of those Hindus whose Ayurvedic medicine you sneer at (not that you know anything about it, I’ll wager), and some Buddhism, and some Japanese, Korean, and Chinese literature. And some secondary sources on Egypt, Babylon, and Sumer (also the epic of Gilgamesh).

Also some Celtic, Norse, and Finnish folklore. And Navajo, Apache, Hopi, and Aztec folklore and mythology. And secondary sources dealing with same.

And medieval literature and a lot of secondary sources about the period.

Every one of those cultures, except debatably the Japanese, were slave-cultures. And yet they were fully functional, and had a much higher ethical life than our culture (except the Aztecs, perhaps–although they had much better sexual morality than us, and made their sacrifices to the gods, not to their convenience). Everyone at least called slaves slaves, unlike us.

And you might have wanted to keep it to yourself that you have a BA in Anthropology, since now we know you have no excuse for saying such ridiculous, ethnocentric things.

The most basic truth a wide study of other cultures teaches, is that every culture essentially strikes a balance between morality and survival, and most of them strike it at about the same level. Some, however, are lower (ours, the Aztecs, the Carthaginians), and one (medieval Europe) was higher.

 

[Genesis315]

I say Aristotle.

As an aside, a friend of mine once was in a Catholic church that had a stained glass window of Aristotle with a silver halo (the Saints depicted all had gold halos). I thought that was interesting.

 

[ateista]

Leonine contract–you work for one of a few masters or you starve. Where’s the freedom in that?

Ever heard of the concept of… moving? To somewhere else? This is America… you are free to get your stuff in a U-Haul and get where there is a market for your talents… simple.

And I live in Flagstaff Arizona, the town with no economy, thanks to the proletarian model–there are no employers here. So yeah, I know what I’m talking about.

Well, you can wallow in your misery, or act like a responsible adult and seek another place.

Unlimited choices?

Forgive me, but there is no employment market in my town, and I am ineligible for my mother’s insurance. I also have a chronic disease. So until you’ve lived through that, don’t talk to me about “unlimited choices.”

Sounds like a personal problem to me… solve it. As for me… I escaped a communist country with only one suitcase and no prospect for the future, because I valued freedom and not security… and it was a very good choice. Yes, I know from personal experience what it takes to live off of 300 dollars a month (for my family and not for myself) to work a back-breaking labor of one cent per door to deliver stuff - which translates to 30 thousand doors a month - or one thousand doors a day.

And it was our choice and we took responsibility for it… not wailing about how “unlucky we are”.

What laughable conceit! In the ancient world, you made your choices, and accepted responsibility for them–including selling yourself into slavery to pay off your debts.

No, we are talking about selling your daughter into sexual slavery to pay off your debt - how “moral”.

No modern person, whose country has “welfare” and “social security”, and whose culture does not practice ritual suicide, even knows the meaning of the words “take responsibility”.

Strange… you try to get sympathy wailing about your personal problems and blaming others for not wanting to accept slavery… you sure are one strange person. Get your behind off from the couch and get a job… that is called accepting responsibility.