Whoa... Now that's what I call a "parallel church" movement

[pnewton]

TNT:

Come now, a SECRET receipe !..
Why is it secret if only weaten and water are used???

No one can certify the INGREDIENTS … would you send a catholic to that mass??

At least bread crumbs wouldn’t be a problem. If they use any other ingredients they have ceased to have the Sacrament.

As far as the stance of Rome, it did not sound to me like the Holy Father “loves” this group. When we look back at the start of the SSPX we have the perspective of history. I am confident that defiance of Rome will eventually result in the disbandment of this group or being declared in schism.

I am reminded of a parallel situation with the LIfeTeen people. The specific deviations from the faith were addressed and the leadership is attempting to comply. In human institutions mistaken ideas will arise. It is the openess to correction that will determine their fate.

There is only a two letter difference between apostate and apostacy.

 

[oat_soda]

Tolkien called “antiquarianism,” or “primitivism.” While the early church is surely to be respected, something being old doesn’t necessarily constitute it’s being good or true. Thoughts anybody?

i think this is part of the problem. from what i read, the liturgy was fabricated by Monsignor Farnés Scherer camminoneocatecumenale.it/en/notastorica.htm . i question his motives as reflecting more of the “spirit” of vatican II and not the documents or the liturgical movement of Pius X and XII.

"At the beginning of the Sixties, Kiko Argüello, a Spanish painter, after experiencing an existential crisis, discovered in the suffering of the innocent people the awesome mystery of the crucified Christ which is present in the ‘least’ of the earth. Such a discovery made him abandon all things and following the footsteps of Charles de Foucauld, he went to live among the poor people of the slums of ‘ Palomeras Altas’ in the outskirts of Madrid. It was there that another Spanish woman, Carmen Hernàndez, a graduate in Chemistry, came to know Kiko Argüello. She had come in touch with the renewal of the Second Vatican Council thanks to Monsignor Farnés Scherer ( a liturgist)

and had been called by her bishop while trying to gather together a group of people with a view to evangelise the miners of Oruro ( Bolivia)." I think the mass was based on a false assumption of how the mass was celebrated during the early stages of Christianity. It also rejects any organic growth of doctrine or liturgy. The liturgy is stripped down so it is entirely didactic and the “signs” of the bread and wine become more important then the mystery and sacrifice. it is a liturgy primarily for the community and not for worshiping God. Cardinal Ratzinger also rejects the this idea, especially the pratice of the priest facing the people as an reenactment of the last supper.

ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA introduction 10: "

Unfortunately, alongside these lights,* there are also shadows*. In some places the practice of Eucharistic adoration has been almost completely abandoned. In various parts of the Church abuses have occurred, leading to confusion with regard to sound faith and Catholic doctrine concerning this wonderful sacrament. At times one encounters an extremely reductive understanding of the Eucharistic mystery. Stripped of its sacrificial meaning, it is celebrated as if it were simply a fraternal banquet." the way’s liturgy clearly contradicts pius xii’s encyclical on the liturgy

But it is neither wise nor laudable to reduce everything to antiquity by every possible device

. Thus, to cite some instances, one would be straying from the straight path were he to wish the altar restored to its primitive tableform; were he to want black excluded as a color for the liturgical vestments; were he to forbid the use of sacred images and statues in Churches; were he to order the crucifix so designed that the divine Redeemer’s body shows no trace of His cruel sufferings; and lastly were he to disdain and reject polyphonic music or singing in parts, even where it conforms to regulations issued by the Holy See vatican.va/holy_father/p…tor-dei_en.html

 

[mgy100]

Is it now wrong to adhere to traditions without begging, but it is now alright to create new traditions that break away from the catholic core… seems like it.

Guess we could all start a new group and do what ever we wanted… and get temp status… we’ll meet at bus stations, let women read the gospel and have children preach homilies and so on, and we’ll be given a temp status in the church. The Way is spanish for fruitcake dissenters.
Why would they want to have mass in secret places in small groups? They’re not in persecution (not yet, they haven’t elevated me to king) and only disgrace the memory of those who had/have to hear mass in secret.

 

[oat_soda]

The Way is spanish for fruitcake dissenters

i’m in the way. i can tell you that the priests associated with it are orthodox in matters of morals and obedience to the pope, at least the ones i’ve delt with. i’m getting out not because they are dissenters, but because it’s based on a error.

it’s depressing because it’s impossible to know what is really the result of the Holy Spirit: the way teaches heretical ideas; the founder of the legionaries resigned amid accusations of being a homo; the fssp (my favorite) was a splinter group of sspx who’s founder lefebrve was excommunicated. i guess the church supports any group that produces numerous vocations.

 

[Prometheum_x]

oat soda:

i’m in the way. i can tell you that the priests associated with it are orthodox in matters of morals and obedience to the pope, at least the ones i’ve delt with. i’m getting out not because they are dissenters, but because it’s based on a error.

it’s depressing because it’s impossible to know what is really the result of the Holy Spirit: the way teaches heretical ideas; the founder of the legionaries resigned amid accusations of being a homo; the fssp (my favorite) was a splinter group of sspx who’s founder lefebrve was excommunicated. i guess the church supports any group that produces numerous vocations.

Sometimes it is difficult to determine how much of a movement is the result of the Holy Spirit and how much of the same movement is a man-made mess. . .

In fact, it seems that many of the groups that fall into schism or serious error began with good intentions – Martin Luther was the leader of such a group. Just think what the world would be like if Luther had remained obedient and allowed his insights to be developed and refined within the Church instead of in the way he ultimately chose! Perhaps he would be considered one of the great Catholic reformers of that time. . .

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

Ok, I got ya on this.

There is a different between the Way and the SSPX.

The Way followed the Church and gave their statues to the Church and were approved on an experimental basis for 5 years, which ends in 2007. I doubt the Church will act much until then. They have also given their catechical works to the Church for approval and continue to work though the process.

This differs from the SSPX and Lefebvre. Lefebvre acted outside of the Church, acutally went so far as to act against the Church’s commands.

I have not really seen the Holy Father praising the Way and if he is that is a personal thing.

As for your command to repent, I have nothing to repent for. The SSPX are outside of the Church by their own act of schism and I am not bound by anything Fr Levis says.

Oh yes you do. They, the SSPX, aren’t Protestants, they are Catholics. A Catholic being called a heretic is a grave insult. It is sinful and not kosher.