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"Whoever believes AND IS BAPTISED will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)
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AlaricTeudisson
Guest
Jon and RC,
Yes I do affirm those articles that were quoted. My point, which must not have been clear, was that the result of baptism is the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I was trying to say that baptism is not merely symbolic. It has efficacy.
I do think its interesting that the Bible quotation ends with “whoever does not believe will be condemned” and does not mention baptism as part of the negative statement. It’s not parallel with the initial positive assertion. Do you guys believe this is just semantics or is this intentional?
Jeff
Yes I do affirm those articles that were quoted. My point, which must not have been clear, was that the result of baptism is the Gift of the Holy Spirit. I was trying to say that baptism is not merely symbolic. It has efficacy.
I do think its interesting that the Bible quotation ends with “whoever does not believe will be condemned” and does not mention baptism as part of the negative statement. It’s not parallel with the initial positive assertion. Do you guys believe this is just semantics or is this intentional?
Jeff
Thanks, Jeff. I kinda thought that was what you meant.
This positive, along with the positive “Baptism now saves you” are clear statements. The negative would place a limit God’s mercy and grace, ISTM. God is not painted into a corner regarding infants, or the thief on the cross, etc. But that’s just my speculation.
Jon
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
I agree. However, unless I am mistaken, you said that the “actual act of Baptism” and Baptism of the Holy Spirit were different. Or it seemed that way to me anyway:
Perhaps if you clarified the above statement. Do you believe Baptism of the Holy Spirit is different than the “actual act of Baptism”?
I see nothing wrong with that verse of Scripture. Truly “whoever does not believe will be condemned”. Baptism is the “sacrament of faith”. Instead of me butchering it I will let the CCC explain it:
I am not sure of the Lutheran position on that particular verse. Jon would be better to answer that. What are your thoughts on the passage,* “whoever does not believe will be condemned”*?
God bless you
I think the message is clear, salvation is by Grace through faith in Christ. If one doesn’t believe, condemnation. That said, we are not in a position to know how God determines belief, and we’re best off doing two things: 1) fulfill as best we can the great commission: “go into all nations…”. 2) Let God do the judging of others, and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Jon
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guanophore
Guest
This is interesting, Jon. This principle is one upon which the whole gift of infallibility is based. Since mixing error with Truth presents such a danger, it is tantamount to the gates of hell prevailing against the Church. That is why infalibility is needed, to prevent the faithful from falling into error, and thus passing through the gates of hell.
I know the Lutheran communion does not take this track, but the foundation is the same.
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guanophore
Guest
No, I think it is a reference to the fact that baptism is inseparably connectes with saving faith. I also think that it refers to those few that, though they do believe, are not able to be baptized.
Well, I don’t view the Church as only the Church Militant, and I know you don’t either. For the gates of Hell to prevail, it would have to prevail over the entire Church, including the Church Triumphant, and, if you are so inclined, the Church Suffering. So, I don’t see that happening, regardless of the faults and sins of the Church Militant.
While this is probably off topic (maybe Jimmy won’t mind
), but just some personal musings on the issue of infallibility.Scripture is infallible in terms of faith and morals, because it is the word of God.
The truly ecumenical councils - 7 - are probably as close to infallible as man’s writings can be.
Schism and division since then makes it difficult to prove which teaching(s) since are true, Orthodox, Roman, or otherwise. Therefore, one relies on the mercy of God when one chooses which communion to worship him in. Therefore, we trust the truth of the statement: he that believes and is Baptized shall be saved.
But danger of error still exists, which should make all of us mor dilligent in our prayers and actions towards reconciliation.
Jon
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guanophore
Guest
I agree with the content of your post, and this is off topic, but I wanted to comment that it is not possible for Scripture to be infallible. Infallibility is a quality that belongs to persons, not books, however Holy. This is because fallibility (or not) relates to actions of persons. Falliblity (the ability to make a mistake/error) requires characteristics only possessed by persons, not writings. Action requires will, discernment, and the ability to take responsibility for the consequences of ones choices. Scripture can do none of these things.
This is why we call the Scriptures inspired and inerrant, and the Church infallible.
I stand corrected. I should have used inerrant. And it proves that I am fallible (not that additional proof was needed).I agree with the content of your post, and this is off topic, but I wanted to comment that it is not possible for Scripture to be infallible. Infallibility is a quality that belongs to persons, not books, however Holy. This is because fallibility (or not) relates to actions of persons. Falliblity (the ability to make a mistake/error) requires characteristics only possessed by persons, not writings. Action requires will, discernment, and the ability to take responsibility for the consequences of ones choices. Scripture can do none of these things.
This is why we call the Scriptures inspired and inerrant, and the Church infallible.
Jon
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guanophore
Guest
LOL.I stand corrected. I should have used inerrant. And it proves that I am fallible (not that additional proof was needed).
Jon
Well, I know that you do not reject extrabiblical authority or teaching, and that you know the canon itself is a product of those things. But, there are many of our separated brethren who insist on forcing qualities onto the Holy Writing that it was never intended to carry, so that particular word always sends up red flags for me.
Most, when they read scripture and draw conclusions, do so sincerely believing tha they are led by the HS. In fact, most often we are led by ourselves, and our interpretations are governed by our education and experience (or lack of it).
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Jimmy_B
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Jon,Well, I don’t view the Church as only the Church Militant, and I know you don’t either. For the gates of Hell to prevail, it would have to prevail over the entire Church, including the Church Triumphant, and, if you are so inclined, the Church Suffering. So, I don’t see that happening, regardless of the faults and sins of the Church Militant.
While this is probably off topic (maybe Jimmy won’t mind
Scripture is infallible in terms of faith and morals, because it is the word of God.
The truly ecumenical councils - 7 - are probably as close to infallible as man’s writings can be.
Schism and division since then makes it difficult to prove which teaching(s) since are true, Orthodox, Roman, or otherwise. Therefore, one relies on the mercy of God when one chooses which communion to worship him in. Therefore, we trust the truth of the statement: he that believes and is Baptized shall be saved.
But danger of error still exists, which should make all of us mor dilligent in our prayers and actions towards reconciliation.
Jon
I am always impressed by your posts; and I agree with all your comments above.
I think spreading the Gospel of Christ would be much better served, if we all kept this statement of yours in mind. It is certainly grounded in Holy Scripture:
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
stephe1987,
A year ago, I would have agreed with this statement about infant Baptism. The problem is you really can’t find Biblical support for excluding infants from Baptism; and writings of the early Christians show infant Baptism was practiced in the early Church.
Baptism is circumcision made without hands (Colossians 2:11). Baptism brings us into the New Covenant through Christ, just as circumcision brought Israel into the Old Covenant.
Graces are imparted during Baptism, including the forgiveness of sins.
Acts 2: 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Remember, as John “prepared the way for the Lord;” he proclaimed baptism for the repentance and forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1 (ESV):
3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord,
make his paths straight,’"
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Luke 3:
2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zechariah in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Ephesians 2:
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Colossians states very clearly: the circumcision without hands is the “putting off of the body of the flesh,” by “circumcision of Christ”----being “buried with Him in Baptism,” and “raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God.”
Colossians 2:
8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
The prophetic words of Isaiah tell us that the “uncircumcised and unclean” shall no more come into Jerusalem. Baptism accomplishes our “circumcision.”
Isaiah 52:
The LORD’s Coming Salvation
1 Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake yourself from the dust and arise;
be seated, O Jerusalem;
loose the bonds from your neck,
O captive daughter of Zion.
3For thus says the LORD: “You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money.”
Hope this helps,
Anna
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Our Father’s Beautiful Gifts to Us – Baptism
We as Roman Catholics are very fortunate in having Sacraments. The Sacraments of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church are beautiful, awesome gifts of Love, given to us by our Father. They allow us to experience his love and to unite with Him. There are seven important gifts or Sacraments and they are; Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation. Reconciliation, also called Penance, and the Anointing of the Sick (formerly known as Extreme Unction) are the sacraments of the sick. Finally, Marriage and Holy Orders.
Today, I will talk about the Sacrament of Baptism, specifically Infant Baptism… Infant Baptism has replaced the Jewish tradition of infant circumcision (Colossians 2:11-12).
Matthew 3:13-17
“Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?” Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him. After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him. And a voice came from the heavens, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Mark 10:14
“When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”
Luke18:15-16
“People were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. Jesus, however, called the children to himself and said, "Let the children come to me and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.”
Acts 16:15
“After she and her household had been baptized, she offered us an invitation, “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come and stay at my home,” and she prevailed on us.”
Acts 16:33
“He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5
1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7
1216 "This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself:9
Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10
Note: There is much more written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the importance of Baptism. I have included a very small portion here of what is covered in the CCC. I recommend that you read the entire section on Baptism.
…“the gateway to life in the Spirit”… “through Baptism we are freed from sin”…”we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church”.
Continued on next post -
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Continued from last post -
Baptism is a person’s first contact with God. It is the first opportunity we have in our life to truly experience God’s love and it is pleasing to God when we are Baptized. Baptism is when we first, become “Christian”, spirituality and by definition. It is at this point in our lives when …”we become members of Christ and are incorporated into the Church” and “the gateway to life in the Spirit” is open so that we may experience the other Sacraments, gifts of love.
As with all the other Sacraments, the Sacrament of Baptism is a gift of Love. God loves all of us and He has an unending, complete desire to dwell within us. God is always with his children, present in everyone’s Soul. Baptism is a gift of love from God.
Baptism is also a gift of love from God’s Church, the Priest performing the Baptism, the Baptized infant’s Parents and God-Parents and all those present, witnessing this awesome moment in your early life, immense love focused on you by people who love you and are committed through the Sacrament of Baptism, to raise you to know and love and obey God.
Just imagine how much love was directed towards you on the day of your Baptism. When we as parents Baptize our children, we invited God into our child’s life and into our lives. God loves us and wants us to invite him our lives and into our homes. We accomplish this through the Sacrament of Baptism.
Knowing all this, why would anyone not want to be inviting to God? Why would anyone want to deny or delay a precious baby’s Baptism? Why would anyone want to keep their child from their first contact with God? Why would anyone want to keep their child from becoming a Christian?
When were you Baptized? I was Baptized when I was ten days old and I have thanked my mother on several occasions for having me baptized as a baby. I thank her because, I know she had me Baptized because she loved me. Have you ever thanked your mother or father for having you Baptized? You should, Infant Baptism is the greatest gift you have ever received from your parent(s). You couldn’t have been Baptized as an infant if your parents didn’t love you and make the necessary arrangements to have you Baptized.
For non-Catholic Christians who don’t understand the absolute need of Infant Baptism, or believe one should be at the “age of reasoning” prior to being Baptized, the Sacrament of Confirmation should take care of this concern.
The Sacrament of Confirmation takes place, after several years of formal religious education and when a child has already received the Sacraments of Baptism, the Holy Eucharist (First Communion) and Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) and when a child is 15-16 years of age, or the “age of reasoning”.
The Sacrament of Confirmation is a time when a young person is reminded of and fully understands and appreciates their Infant Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is the re-affirmation of our Infant Baptism.
Finally, Remember “Sacraments” are so named because they are “sacred”. God’s Church and his humble servants are the protectors of the Holy Sacraments and that which is sacred.
Infant Bptism has occurred, since the time of Jesus and this is well documented in the Bible and elsewhere.
I hope this helps.
May God Bless You!
Baptism is a person’s first contact with God. It is the first opportunity we have in our life to truly experience God’s love and it is pleasing to God when we are Baptized. Baptism is when we first, become “Christian”, spirituality and by definition. It is at this point in our lives when …”we become members of Christ and are incorporated into the Church” and “the gateway to life in the Spirit” is open so that we may experience the other Sacraments, gifts of love.
As with all the other Sacraments, the Sacrament of Baptism is a gift of Love. God loves all of us and He has an unending, complete desire to dwell within us. God is always with his children, present in everyone’s Soul. Baptism is a gift of love from God.
Baptism is also a gift of love from God’s Church, the Priest performing the Baptism, the Baptized infant’s Parents and God-Parents and all those present, witnessing this awesome moment in your early life, immense love focused on you by people who love you and are committed through the Sacrament of Baptism, to raise you to know and love and obey God.
Just imagine how much love was directed towards you on the day of your Baptism. When we as parents Baptize our children, we invited God into our child’s life and into our lives. God loves us and wants us to invite him our lives and into our homes. We accomplish this through the Sacrament of Baptism.
Knowing all this, why would anyone not want to be inviting to God? Why would anyone want to deny or delay a precious baby’s Baptism? Why would anyone want to keep their child from their first contact with God? Why would anyone want to keep their child from becoming a Christian?
When were you Baptized? I was Baptized when I was ten days old and I have thanked my mother on several occasions for having me baptized as a baby. I thank her because, I know she had me Baptized because she loved me. Have you ever thanked your mother or father for having you Baptized? You should, Infant Baptism is the greatest gift you have ever received from your parent(s). You couldn’t have been Baptized as an infant if your parents didn’t love you and make the necessary arrangements to have you Baptized.
For non-Catholic Christians who don’t understand the absolute need of Infant Baptism, or believe one should be at the “age of reasoning” prior to being Baptized, the Sacrament of Confirmation should take care of this concern.
The Sacrament of Confirmation takes place, after several years of formal religious education and when a child has already received the Sacraments of Baptism, the Holy Eucharist (First Communion) and Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) and when a child is 15-16 years of age, or the “age of reasoning”.
The Sacrament of Confirmation is a time when a young person is reminded of and fully understands and appreciates their Infant Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is the re-affirmation of our Infant Baptism.
Finally, Remember “Sacraments” are so named because they are “sacred”. God’s Church and his humble servants are the protectors of the Holy Sacraments and that which is sacred.
Infant Bptism has occurred, since the time of Jesus and this is well documented in the Bible and elsewhere.
I hope this helps.
May God Bless You!
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