Why are the Protestants so misinformed with "works"?

[Hodos]

You’re trying to tell a false narrative and shifting goalposts trying to obfuscate the issue.

I didn’t shift the goalposts my friend. I merely stated our doctrine with regard to justification. My position from beginning to end has been based on the text of Romans regarding justification. You are the one who has switched tactics from discussing relevant scripture (which I refuted - demonstrating how you essentially read Romans backwards at almost every verse you used), to making assertions about the Church Fathers (which I refuted), to non sequiturs and ad hominem attacks on Luther and the Reformation (which I similarly refuted). I find it extremely disingenuous that since you cannot make the case for your position exegetically you have resorted to character attacks, and then have the gall to be offended when my response is that you have an ahistoric view of most of Christian history and that there are two sides to every debate.

You justify the chaos, evil and upheaval of the revolution in Germany?

No, I justify standing for the truth of the scripture and if that caused upheaval in your world then shame on you. It was your side pointing the gun in the face of an unarmed monk bearing no weapon but scripture, not the other way around.

 

[Michael16]

Hodos,

My entire life has been a search for truth and the guiding principle has always been to go where the truth leads me. Even if it’s a place I don’t want to go. If that’s the truth, then I accept it. No matter what.

My search for a true Christian Church began in 2012. I was a Lutheran at the time and I began to study what Luther actually wrote.

Luther wrote two things that have stuck in my mind ever since. Man is a pile of dung covered with snow. That snow is the righteousness of Christ. Man has no free will except to sin.

I read what Luther actually wrote.

My ex wife would quote faith alone at me and I’d reply with Saint James: faith without works is dead.

After she divorced me; I began to read the Bible for myself; reading the text without preconceptions and letting it speak to me without bias.

The more I read Scripture, the more the Church made sense. I read about the other Protestant faiths. None had it all right. It’s like they each had parts of the Faith and emphasized certain parts and no one agrees with each other. No consistency or unity. None of them could possibly be right.

It eventually boiled down to either Anglicanism, the Church or Orthodoxy.

Anglicanism; no way. Too much admixture between the Catholic and Protestant doctrines and the Royal Supremacy. It’s like they tried to make everybody happy and no consistent doctrine or stand. Orthodoxy; no. Each bishop is independent, churches split along national lines and the idea that the Byzantine Emperor was the head of the Church.

The Catholic Church was the Church teaching the whole Faith consistently for 2,000 years. The Church is the Church Christ founded in Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit; unified and consistent, teaching the fullness of the Faith of Jesus Christ in its entirety.

The nail in the coffin was reading Rome Sweet Home by Dr Scott Hahn; a Presbyterian pastor convert to the Faith. He stated, in his own journey to the Faith; that Luther altered Romans 3:28. That was the ding moment. I couldn’t trust someone who altered Scripture.

 

[Michael16]

I’ll explain my methodology.

As a kid in high school, I was an atheist who believed in science. I learned and practiced the scientific method: Rigorous observation, proof derived from evidence and the written record, not simply wishing it to be so; everything had to make logical sense, reliance on objective assessment and objective reality; disdain for the subjective. When I research, I cross reference multiple sources and see what the consensus these sources present. Even both sides of an issue.

I’m 42 years old. For most of those years, I’ve obsessively read history, philosophy, religion, spirituality. What I’ve learned, I applied to my study of Scripture, theology and Church history. I’m not a wild eyed zealot who looks at only the things I agree with or reinforce my beliefs.

Back to my search for Christian truth.

The more I read, the more sense the Church made. Everything was rational, logical, consistent and lined up with Scripture and reason.

The more I read of what Luther said and did horrified me. Such a man, I thought; isn’t a holy man of God. So much anger, bitterness and stubbornness in his words and actions.

In comparison, the Saints of the Church were such men and women.

After I came into the Church; I read all I could on Church history, theology, the Church Fathers and the Doctors of the Church.

I completely immersed myself in the topic of my Faith.

So, Hodos; when I speak on a topic, I’m speaking only the truth from my reading and research. From the evidence, the text and the facts.

So, when you accuse me of being anything but rigorously intellectually honest and misrepresenting things or speaking from a false or ignorant premise; you’re attacking me, and showing your partisanship.

Every step of the way, I present reasonable and cogent arguments from Scripture, reason and the historical record. When we discuss, you’re not just presenting your doctrine on justification. You’re trying to prove to anyone and everyone that you’re right. When anyone disagrees with you and resists your attempts at persuasion and refutes you, you accuse us of not being objective and a slew of other charges. As well as claiming you’ve refuted us when, objectively; you haven’t.

You never ask us where we’re coming from or why we think that way. Let me ask you, man to man: Do you ever consider that you may be wrong?

Consider this, and this a crucial question: If we are justified by faith alone, why would we be judged by what we do?

When you look at the Gospels, you see Jesus talking extensively on this point.

You said we put a gun to an unarmed monk; as if we are the aggressors. To blame for everything and your Luther is some sort of martyr/hero.

My question is this: Did we march into Saxony and lay waste, burning and destroying until we got our hands on Luther?

No. We let him go; honoring the promise of safe conduct we gave to him. Then he wrote and published, fomenting a revolution that laid waste to Germany and organizing his movement; and went on the offensive destroying the world he was born into because he got an idea into his head and ran with it and nobody could tell him otherwise.

 

[Michael16]

Something I want to say.

First: Hodos, in our discussions; we present evidence from Scripture. Assessed objectively and stated from the facts of what the text says. In the face of this, you stubbornly hold onto and insist on the reading we refute time and time again. It’s like you’re not caring or listening to the other opinion that contradicts yours and repeating ad nauseam to us: “ Luther said faith alone; Luther said faith alone. “ Sometimes, I wonder to myself: Are you following Luther or Christ? You’re not debating honestly.

The other point is; you haven’t answered my point on the common sense question of: If Luther was right; it takes a very unlikely set of either mistakes or conspiracy not to have picked up what you claim Saint Paul says clearly in Romans from the very beginning of the Church.

I’m thinking you can’t refute me or adequately explain that.

Beyond these points; I’ve seen that I’ve been really hung up on my anger and hatred of Luther and the great damage he did to Western civilization. I can’t go on trying to live my Faith in the Gospel of love while fulminating with rage at Luther. So, amends need to be made.

Mainly, I need to focus on Jesus. Just let go of the past and just live a good Catholic life. I can’t go back in time and undo what the Church did, failing to live up to the Apostolic ideals she teaches and thus setting the conditions for the revolution to blow up in our faces; and what the Protestants did in reacting to these conditions and coming up with their doctrines and setting up their movements because they believed they were right. I know both sides are at fault; I’m not that much of a blind zealot.

I’m sorry for turning this thread into a war.

I’m sorry, Hodos. I shouldn’t have shoved you up against a wall. It’s not your fault what Luther did. You honestly believe what he taught.

I’m sorry, TULIPed. You tried to defuse me and I just went right on past because I was at war. I should’ve listened to you and backed off. My anger and pride; I allowed to get the better of me.

I just need to let Luther go, forgive him ( Even I assume he honestly believed what he taught ) and move on.

 

[TULIPed]

I know both sides are at fault; I’m not that much of a blind zealot.

Exactly. But it was mostly you guys (Kidding of course - don’t flame me Bro!)

I’m sorry, TULIPed. You tried to defuse me and I just went right on past because I was at war. I should’ve listened to you and backed off. My anger and pride; I allowed to get the better of me.

Oh for the love of Pete, Mike - stop apologizing! We know you, and we don’t take it personally. If anything - don’t get mad, I say this out of love - I find it kind of humorous when @Hodos gets you spun up. (I still take you seriously though, and respect your analysis and thoughts and everything you write, so this is a complement- seriously)

You should read that book though. I promise you won’t become Protestant or something crazy like that. I think it will show you though how 2 witnesses can see a car wreck in different ways (and why the Catholic Church can - very humbly and kindly and Christlike - say in UR what they say.)

In fact, if you want a great book that’s less…Luthery - but is also really good, read “Seven Men: And the Secret to Their Greatness”. It’s got 7 short biographies of people like George Washington and Dr. MLK Jr.

 

[Michael16]

Thanks, TULIPed. I really appreciate what you said.

 

[Techno2000]

Luther…Vs… James 2:17… they both can’t be right, because…

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

1 Corinthians 14:33

 

[Michael16]

TULIPed,

It’s always a joy to see your posts.

I’ve been doing some meditating and studying. I also taught my son yesterday the Catholic definition of justification by faith and he picked it up instantly.

Faith is I believe in Jesus and I do what He says. Faith and works are inseparable. Understood in this whole and original sense of the word, the Early Church thus taught from Saint Paul in Romans that justification by works of the Old Law is replaced by justification by faith and each mention of the word works in Romans reflects this transition affected in Romans 3-4.

I understand that Luther differentiated between justification and sanctification because of the use of these two distinct words.

We see in Romans 6:16 and 6:19 that obedience to sin is death and obedience to righteousness, our justification; is sanctification which is life as we see in the conclusion of Romans 6.

Thus we see that the distinction Luther made between the two words is incorrect and Saint Paul preserves the whole sense of the word faith.

Whereas we see in Lutheran theology that faith is unnaturally split between faith and works based on a misreading of Romans 3:28 and the use of the words justification and sanctification that leads to a confusing harmonization of faith alone; but faith not alone. That works are necessary but aren’t a part of justification.

We see that Saint Paul taught the whole concept of faith: Faith+obedience+works= Eternal life.

Compare Sola Fide that unnaturally separates faith from works while preserving harmony with the text by stating faith alone; but faith not alone. It’s confusing and unnecessarily complicated; whereas the Catholic teaching is holistic and simple. A natural flow of I believe and I do.

Then you have Saint James 2:21, paraphrased; “ A man is justified by his works. “

Now, I understand how Protestant apologists have harmonized most of Saint James with their misunderstanding of Romans that “ proves “ Sola Fide teaches faith alive with works and thus preserves their error. But: How does the Protestant harmonize Saint James 2:21 with his error? Without attacking the canonicity of Saint James.

The other thing I’ve read was the source I read summarized the contents of Luther’s Address to the Christian Nobility. In it, Luther writes of three walls of the Romanists that prevents reform. In one of those walls, he takes the authority to interpret Scripture from the Magisterium and places it with the individual; thus proving the Catholic charge that Sola Scriptura eliminates authority in the interpretation of Scripture.

Without either a strong charismatic figure, or a strong central authority instituted to arbitrate disputes over interpretations; you see what we inevitably see in the Protestant communities: Schism over different interpretations into subsects within traditions becomes rife and endemic to the Protestant traditions.

Compare to the Church; we have both the necessary central authority figure of the Pope and the teaching authority of the Magisterium that defines and declares dogma and preserves the unity of the Church over 2,000 years.

It’s not merely a hermeneutical methodology as Hodos claims.

 

[TULIPed]

But: How does the Protestant harmonize Saint James 2:21 with his error? Without attacking the canonicity of Saint James.

First, @Hodos will do a better job on this than me, so I’d ask him to critique my response.

Second - every Protestant Bible I’ve ever seen has this passage in it. I actually think this one is fairly straightforward. (I think the parable in Luke 19 is way more challenging from a “it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s what you do - and how you take risk - that matters…)

Third, Protestants are taught to interpret scripture first using other scripture. This is why - for example - Protestant (nor Catholic) churches aren’t filled with (self inflicted) one armed people

And so, it’s interesting that 2 verses later, we find this:

“You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. “

Why do you think the word “counted” or “reckoned” is used? Look up the word in Greek. It’s an interesting word. In any case, St. James goes on to say that “faith apart from (or without as we’ve discussed before) works is dead”. I’ve already discussed the way in which that sentence is structured grammatically, i.e. that the word dead points back to the word faith.

From all this, we Protestants would say that: (a) faith without works is indeed a dead faith; (b) even our faith (as Abraham’s) doesn’t on its own make us actually righteous, rather it’s counted to us as righteousness thanks to Christ; and (c) all of our good works are only good because of Christ.

If my heresy is giving Christ too much credit for my faith and my works, then a heretic I’ll stay. Any and all good works I do are (a) only good because of Christ; and (b) only done by me due to my faith in Christ. Soli Deo Gloria. And that’s how I interpret James 2.

 

[Techno2000]

“You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. “

Abraham had to prove his faith by sacrificing Isaac.

 

[Michael16]

I understand where you’re coming from TULIPed. But, the question of James 2:21 itself I feel hasn’t been answered.

I understand the Protestant exegesis you’ve stated. If I’m understanding it right; what you’re saying is that since good works come only from faith that works themselves don’t have any role in salvation. I hope I’m understanding your point correctly.

But, to me; the question remains: Since Saint James clearly says a man is justified by his works; how can a Protestant maintain Sola Fide in the face of it?

To me, it’s impossible.

 

[TULIPed]

But, to me; the question remains: Since Saint James clearly says a man is justified by his works; how can a Protestant maintain Sola Fide in the face of it?

We say that he says that in context with everything else he says. Jesus says that if our arm causes us to sin, cut it off. We all have 2 arms because we put that verse in context and tension with everything else He said. We do the same here. And we can agree to disagree on the interpretation.

 

[Michael16]

I get where you’re coming from; though of course I disagree.

In context with the Gospels’ statements and parables on the consequences of doing or not doing actions, plus the exegesis of Saint Paul’s obedience of faith in Romans 1:5 and his statement “ of works of the law “ which is of course different from Saint James’ use of the word works; I don’t see where your context is coming from.

 

[TULIPed]

Name a Bible hero (except for Jesus) who was actually righteous - totally righteous. There aren’t any. The entire Bible is filled with a bunch of misfit sinners. Abraham pawned his own wife off to Pharaoh. David was an adulterer and a murderer for heaven’s sake! Solomon - the wisest man EVER - died an idoloter so bad God took split his kingdom (and away went 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel!). Speaking of which, the nation of Israel was terrible most of it’s history. And when I say terrible, I mean burn your kids, at the top of mountaintops terrible. And that’s just some of the more notable ones.

Everything in the Bible screams (at least to me) that we are counted as righteous by God IN SPITE OF our works (thank God) by - and only by - His mercy and plan. What Christian person actually thinks they’re righteous? You’re good after Mass? Excellent - how did the drive home go? If we’re really doing well, we might be able to make it from a handshake with the pastor to our cars without getting angry with our kids for heaven’s sake.

That’s my context - the Bible and my life say that I am not righteous. I’m not close to being actually righteous. In fact, the further I go with Christ, the more I’m convicted about how UNrighteous I am. And He loves me anyway!!

And because He loves me, I do good things. I don’t do good things to get Him to love me. I don’t do good things because I am good. I do good things because HE is good. It’s pretty simple to me - and it makes perfect sense when I read the Bible. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to Him belong, they are weak, but He is strong. i should totally make that a song

 

[Michael16]

I don’t mean to make you upset.

As for the I don’t do good things to get Him to love me thing; we can all agree on that. Catholics don’t try to buy God off with our works. That’s not how it goes.

We can all agree that without Jesus dying on the Cross and our justification by faith in Him; we’re all hell bound if left to our own will and efforts under the law without grace.

And I’m not saying that, even with grace; that we can ever be perfect. Some of the saints in the Church got really close, IMHO.

All I’m saying is: It takes faith completed in works for our salvation. We must believe and do; walking the walk of faith with God and doing the best we can, with His help; to be obedient sons and daughters of the Most High; struggling with sin and temptation every step of the way. The point isn’t to avoid all venial sins. That’s never going to go away.

The real trick is doing our level best to avoid mortal sin. When we fall; our only recourse is a good Confession. God willing, I won’t have any mortal sins on my soul when I die.

God willing, we’ll receive the mercy of being allowed entry into heaven. Well done, good and faithful servant. I pray both you, I and Hodos; all of us who earnestly and sincerely believe and do what Jesus tells us to do; hear those words from Our Lord.

You guys do it, Faith alive with works; just you guys have your own understanding that says it’s only faith.

Respectfully, you guys are taught only half of the equation.

By the way, I have to admit: I deeply respect and admire your humility that you give all the glory to God. That’s a beautifully Catholic thing to say. I mean that as a sincere compliment.

 

[TULIPed]

I don’t mean to make you upset.

Mike - trust me - you never make me upset. My anger makes me upset. Poverty makes me upset. People who cut in the left turn line make me upset (unfortunately). Texas football makes me upset (righteous anger). An internet forum doesn’t make me upset (oddly).

You guys do it, Faith alive with works; just you guys have your own understanding that says it’s only faith.

Thank you. You guys do it too. I have many Catholic brothers who live out their faith in big and small ways every day. They are role models for me.

By the way, I have to admit: I deeply respect and admire your humility that you give all the glory to God. That’s a beautifully Catholic thing to say. I mean that as a sincere compliment.

You’re too kind. I appreciate it. It’s easy for me to be (act?) humble on CAF. I write a really good game.
It’s really hard in the conference room at the office - or with my wonderful spouse. Trust me. I am a very, very proud person I’m sad to admit. Which is why, at this time of year especially, I’m happy and thankful for a Savior.

Gotta go get ready for another Xmas Party Mike. Merry Christmas!

 

[Michael16]

Merry Christmas, TULIPed.

I struggle a lot with my anger and absent mindedness because I’m often in my head, my books or my phone. So, I totally understand the pride thing. I ain’t too humble myself. I can get really complacent and arrogant.

When I reflect over the course of my life; I know for a blessed fact none of this could I have done on my own or ever deserve. So, I chalk it all up to God and try to live out my faith in His Son for love and gratitude and do the best I can by the wonderful woman He led me to and the two sons He gave into my charge.

Funny you talk about role models in your life. I’ve learned something from you. I learned that both Catholics and Protestants do faith alive with works. That forms the basis of how I can interact with Protestants and help out my fellow Christians in building them up.

From Hodos, I learned the truth of justification by faith and learned that the Church has been teaching it faithfully from the beginning. Another thing I learned with him: I can finally let go of Luther and stop fighting the Reformation over and over again.

From both of you, I received inspiration to reach back into my Protestant past and apply faith in my life.

 

[Techno2000]

The entire Bible is filled with a bunch of misfit sinners.

But, they also did a lot of good to balance out the scale.

 

[C.Longinus]

TULIPed:

The entire Bible is filled with a bunch of misfit sinners.

But, they also did a lot of good to balance out the scale.

Jesus blotted our the bad half. To suggest anything else borders on Pelagism.