Why are there different rites of the Catholic Church?

[Irenicist]

Orthodox theology is different in regard to original sin, the sacrament of confession and even transsubstantiation… they also allow up to three marriages and two divorces… they do not accept the primacy of Peter or papal infallibility. They deny the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, purgatory and do not accept all the Church Councils. Of course the liturgy is the same, they’ve amputated themselves from the Body of Christ and hold onto tradition, as most do. Remember, Christianity came to Ukraine in 988 AD, as the Church of Christ ~ the Catholic Church, as we know it. The Orthodox really can not claim Apostolic Succession, as the Catholic Church does.

Well, it looks like I have to walk the talk.

The pain Ukrainian Catholics have suffered at the hands of the Orthodox comes across very strongly in your post. We are called, however, to turn the other cheek and to practice as much charity as we can. No one denies that Orthodox theology is different (least of all the Orthodox). All that was stated here was that all Byzantines, whether Catholic or Orthodox, basically share the same ritual forms, i.e. the same rite. You are using “rite” in the different sense of a sui juris Church. We should all indeed understand, if we don’t already that Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox belong to different Churches. And, yes, the Orthodox do not share exactly the Catholic understanding of apostolic succession, but they nonetheless maintain valid succession which Rome recognizes.

Because the Orthodox deny Catholic dogma, you have to ask yourself, are they heretics? Because they deny the primacy of Peter, you have to ask yourself, are they schismatic? Look up the definition of both terms. When you speak to a faithful Orthodox heirarchy member, they will be forced to claim that they believe the Catholic, is the heretic and schismatic. Hence, I really don’t know how each ‘Church’ got around lifting mutual excommunications.

You can ask yourself whether they are heretics and/or schismatics, but Rome has determined that they are the latter but not the former. The differences in theology are not such as to constitute heresy as opposed to mere error.

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, is compromising left and right, to accomodate the Orthodox, such as removing the Filioque from the Liturgy and even coming up with a new catechism. Very sad, indeed. St. Athanasius rolls over in his grave a few hundred times a day, I’m sure… .

I don’t think this represents an attempt to accomodate the Orthodox so much as to return, as the Holy See has requested, to the local liturgical practices current before the division of East and West. It’s far from clear that St. Athanasisus would have fought tooth and nail for the filioque. He voted for the Creed in its original form, after all. Catholics trust, however, that he would have wholeheartedly supported the meaning the filioque is intended to convey.

quote=Daisiegirl;2941135]I am a granddaughter of a Faithful Ukrainian Catholic priest, who was imprisoned for not renouncing his Catholic Faith and conceding to the Orthodox, during WWII in Ukraine. Who will be first in line to say it was in vain? Who will be the first in line to say that my ancestors were misled to believe that martyrdom was the wiser choice, than renouncing their Faith and becoming Orthodox?.

I certainly won’t.

Irenicist

 

[Irenicist]

What do you think of Ukrainian Catholic parishes like this one, which boldly proclaim the Eastern faith?

http://www.saintelias.com/

If you want statues, pews, purgatory, and the filioque, why go to an Eastern Catholic Church? Without its own theology and spirituality, it becomes a costume party for Roman Catholics who like pretty things. Why would saints and martyrs live and die for some quaint customs? There must be more that the Eastern Catholic Churches have to share with the world.

That’s beginning to get offensive. Why should she have to leave her Church to pursue legitimate private devotions or explore Latin theology?

Would a Latin be betraying his tradition if he chose to practice the philokalia? Would an inkonostasis somehow pollute a Latin sanctuary?

Irenicist

 

[Genesis315]

It’s fine for some customs to be illicit in one place and licit in another–St. Monica had to abandon some beloved customs she had when she moved from Carthage to Milan.

The difference between now and the past is that the rites used to be geographically organized. If you lived in Antioch you would worship according to their rites and if you moved to Rome you would worship according to their rites.

However, after the split between East and West, and general uniformity that emerged in the West particularly but also in the East, Latins living among Greeks and Greeks among Latins retained their rites rather than simply using the one’s in place (because those longer rites of the true Church according to each perspective).

Later as re-unions were effected and mass immigration increased, lawful Eastern and Western rites became present in the same place. For more uniformity, for better or worse, the Eastern rites received some Latinization.

However, we see the move now into a hybrid of the ancient and more recent practices–there can be lawful and unlawful customs in different churches, even if those churches are in the same geographic area.

 

[Irenicist]

It’s fine for some customs to be illicit in one place and licit in another–St. Monica had to abandon some beloved customs she had when she moved from Carthage to Milan.

The difference between now and the past is that the rites used to be geographically organized. If you lived in Antioch you would worship according to their rites and if you moved to Rome you would worship according to their rites.

However, after the split between East and West, and general uniformity that emerged in the West particularly but also in the East, Latins living among Greeks and Greeks among Latins retained their rites rather than simply using the one’s in place (because those longer rites of the true Church according to each perspective).

Later as re-unions were effected and mass immigration increased, lawful Eastern and Western rites became present in the same place. For more uniformity, for better or worse, the Eastern rites received some Latinization.

However, we see the move now into a hybrid of the ancient and more recent practices–there can be lawful and unlawful customs in different churches, even if those churches are in the same geographic area.

A few important qualifers. As a Catholic you can licitly particiapte in the liturgy of any Catholic church anywhere in the world. From the point of view of ecclesial order, obviously in a given public liturgy some acts and forms may be specifically licit and others not. But it would be outrageous to suggest that this licit/illicit distinction should extend to private devotions as well.

If I can make the sign of the cross in the Eastern manner while publicly attending a Byzantine Catholic service and while remaining a Latin, who is to tell me that I must join a Byzantine Church before I can sign myself in the same way in my private devotions, or a Byzantine that she somehow cannot recite the rosary without becoming a Latin.

Irenicist

 

[Irenicist]

I should also add that there was considerable geographic admixture of rites before the split between East and West: e.g. Latin churches in Constantinople and Byzantine churches in Sicily.

Irenicist

 

[Eureka007]

Hi, This is Eureka007, There are different rites in the church, because some were eastern orthodox before the uniate movement begin. The Uniate movement was the Beginings of different rites in the church.
thank You,
Eureka007.

 

[Amadeus]

I think it is beneficial for us to take another look at the Reference Thread prepared by our brother Neil, the Irish Melkite, and permanently made available by our Moderator, Joe Monahan, at the banner of this sub-Forum.

The thread discusses each and every Rite, and the corresponding offshoots, extant in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches from the very beginning:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=99337

On the other hand, the Latin Church has 7 extant Rites, the foremost of which is the Roman Rite (i.e., most Latin Catholics belong to this Rite), with 3 allowed “usages”: (1) the Ordinary Form, aka the Novus Ordo; (2) the Extraordinary Form, aka as the TLM; and (3) the Anglican Use.

As listed by EWTN, the other 6 Rites in the Latin Church, which are of limited use by geography or by Religious Order, are:

**• Mozarabic --**The Rite of the Iberian peninsula (Spain and Portugal) known from at least the 6th century, but probably with roots to the original evangelization. Beginning in the 11th century it was generally replaced by the Roman Rite, although it has remained the Rite of the Cathedral of the Archdiocese of Toledo, Spain, and six parishes which sought permission to adhere to it. Its celebration today is generally semi–private.

• Ambrosian – The Rite of the Archdiocese of Milan, Italy, thought to be of early origin and probably consolidated, but not originated, by St. Ambrose. Pope Paul VI was from this Roman Rite. It continues to be celebrated in Milan, though not by all parishes.

• Bragan – Rite of the Archdiocese of Braga, the Primatial See of Portugal, it derives from the 12th century or earlier. It continues to be of occasional use.

• Dominican – Rite of the Order of Friars Preacher (OP), founded by St. Dominic in 1215.

• Carmelite – Rite of the Order of Carmel, whose modern foundation was by St. Berthold c.1154
.
• Carthusian – Rite of the Carthusian Order founded by St. Bruno in 1084.

 

[Woodstock]

That’s beginning to get offensive. Why should she have to leave her Church to pursue legitimate private devotions or explore Latin theology?

Would a Latin be betraying his tradition if he chose to practice the philokalia? Would an inkonostasis somehow pollute a Latin sanctuary?

Irenicist

Not if he did it privately. I wouldn’t demand that a Roman Catholic parish take down statues and put up icons because I was a Roman Catholic who was nourished by a private devotional use of them. The difference is in the *public *expression of the faith. Lex orandi, lex credendi. The eastern faith cannot be fully proclaimed in a parish with pews, statues, no iconostasis, kneeling on Sunday, and a public devotion to the rosary, among other things.

A personal devotion is different from a call for a public expression.

 

[Woodstock]

%between% On the other hand, the Latin Church has 7 extant Rites, the foremost of which is the Roman Rite (i.e., most Latin Catholics belong to this Rite), with 3 allowed “usages”: (1) the Ordinary Form, aka the Novus Ordo; (2) the Extraordinary Form, aka as the TLM; and (3) the Anglican Use.

As listed by EWTN, the other 6 Rites in the Latin Church, which are of limited use by geography or by Religious Order, are:

• Mozarabic –

And there were more western rites before them. Some promulgation which preserved them wiped out all rites which at the time were less than 500 years old, if I recall.

 

[mgy100]

for many reasons.

 

[Aramis]

I think it is beneficial for us to take another look at the Reference Thread prepared by our brother Neil, the Irish Melkite, and permanently made available by our Moderator, Joe Monahan, at the banner of this sub-Forum.

The thread discusses each and every Rite, and the corresponding offshoots, extant in the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches from the very beginning:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=99337

On the other hand, the Latin Church has 7 extant Rites, the foremost of which is the Roman Rite (i.e., most Latin Catholics belong to this Rite), with 3 allowed “usages”: (1) the Ordinary Form, aka the Novus Ordo; (2) the Extraordinary Form, aka as the TLM; and (3) the Anglican Use.

As listed by EWTN, the other 6 Rites in the Latin Church, which are of limited use by geography or by Religious Order, are:

The other six “rites” are no more Rites than the difference between Ruthenian and Melkite. They are very much the Roman/Latin Rite; calling them Rites is a holdover from the older use, now frowned upon outside the Roman Church Sui Iuris. Most properly, they are recensions, since they neither have Sui Uiris churches, nor do they have a separate theological Tradition.

So we have 9 Roman Church masses in use. Starting to look very, well, byzantine…

(I’d forgotten the Bragan and Carthusian.)

 

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