Why are we born without consent?

[radishbo]

I am an active Catholic and I have been having some doubts about the faith - I’m slowly resolving them one by one, but this is perhaps the most persistant one for me.

If someone were to pose the question to me prior to my birth and say: ok, you are going to be born into a world filled with sin and pain and fear. you will be unhappy the vast majority of the time. there is love and goodness available but you will have to work hard every single day, reject the status quo and the advice of all your peers and constantly battle temptation in order to remain in it. at the end of all this, you might have eternal bliss and joy or, objectively more likely, you will be subject to eternal torment. What do you think?

well, i would simply say No Thank You.

I don’t understand why I was given a life and soul that I do not particularly want. I didn’t agree to be put to this excrutiating test. I didn’t agree to be subjected to eternal existence of any kind. I can’t help but feel it is, at the very least, mildly unfair that I am going to be judged based on the results of an exam I never asked to take.

Since we have free will, why is there no option to opt out? I would bet there are many, many people in the world who would choose to not be born if they had ever been given the choice.

I also struggle a lot with the idea of ever becoming a parent because of this. My relationship with my parents is very iffy because I spent much of my youth resenting them for creating me. I don’t see how I could ever possibly give birth to a child in good conscience, knowing it may very well feel the same as me and not really want to be brought into the world at all.

 

[PetraG]

Have you ever heard the serenity advice that points out that happiness requires a person to accept the premise “My life is not about me”?

Look up Robert Barron and “your life is not about you”; he has done a good job of explaining the theme in several different presentations, so any of a number of his videos would work. (He started doing videos as Fr Robert Barrón before being made Bishop Robert Barron. It’s the same man.)

He actually did one on “the child free life,” I think, but I haven’t listened to that particular one.

Before you rebel at the premise, hear him out. There are choices you can make that will increase your happiness and the happiness of those around you. The insistence that your existence was somehow an offense against you—which is questionable off of the top—is not worth the misery that guarding that sense of injury guarantees for you. It could just be that the source of your misery has always been in your own control. That is because the Father of Lies has been feeding you false ideas that will only make you perpetually unhappy, even though you were created for happiness.

The truth will set you free. Really.

 

[oliver109]

More relevant to us would be: do we die without consent?

 

[OddBird]

This week I watched the funeral Mass of Birthe Lejeune, the widow of professor (and Servant of God) Jérôme Lejeune, an extraordinary woman who passed away on May 6th.

In his homily, the Archbishop of Paris, who was presiding, said something like : “Why are we born in this world ? Why is it necessary to go through this complicated and often painful earthly life before we go back to the God who created us ? Because this is the only way we can learn how to love.”

This is how I see it too. Not as having to take a test I am bound to fail, but as learning to love as Christ himself loved us.

 

[rdj69]

Existence is objectively good; non-existence is objectively evil. Regardless of how difficult one’s existence is, it will always be better than if they had never existed at all.

Why doesn’t God give us a choice? Because we’re childish idiots who constantly make horrible, stupid, self-destructive choices. God making you exist even if you don’t want to is like a parent making their child eat vegetables; you may hate it right now, you may not understand how anything good could come of it, but it’s ultimately going to be very good for you.

I always find it so odd when people wish God would give them more “say” in their own lives. I’m exactly the opposite; I constantly wish God would just force me to do what’s best for me even when I don’t want to.

 

[oliver109]

I always find it so odd when people wish God would give them more “say” in their own lives. I’m exactly the opposite; I constantly wish God would just force me to do what’s best for me even when I don’t want to.

I think it stems from what is often taught in the church about God being all about choice and freedom when it is clear that some things just cannot be avoided, death, heartbreak etc.

 

[rdj69]

what is often taught in the church about God being all about choice and freedom

I don’t really know what you mean by this. God gives us freedom of choice, but in an extremely limited capacity. He makes 99% of the decisions about what life will be like, and thank God he does because he quite clearly knows far better than we do what’s best for us.

 

[oliver109]

I mean on things like how we choose our final destiny, even though many don’t choose to die in the first place, i am not saying that we should not die, rather that those who do not want to die have to!

 

[rdj69]

I guess I’m just not seeing your point in relation to the thread topic.

 

[radishbo]

What on earth does “non-existence is objectively evil” mean? How can non-existence be anything but neutral? There are theoretically infinite people who don’t exist, are they all experiencing evil right now?

Existence will “ultimately be very good” only if I consistently make the right choices, which I am not guaranteed to do. None of us are guaranteed to do this, which is why the Church teaches that we are inherintely sinful. I can cultivate love in my heart all I like but I will still sin and every sin is capable of damning me. Everyone has the potential to go to hell which is ultimately not very good at all. Is eternal torment less objectively evil than non-existence, or would you say the two are equivalent?

 

[OddBird]

@radishbo, maybe I’m wrong, but I have a feeling your OP is motivated by a fear of hell which gives you a rather dark outlook on life.

But God ultimately desires our salvation, not our loss. He made us for hope, not for despair. He is not out to catch us at the first – or second, or third…– failing.

From the Catechism (#1993) :

Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.

(Bolding mine.)

You’re not alone in this. He is working in you, with you and for you.

I can cultivate love in my heart all I like but I will still sin and every sin is capable of damning me.

I think this sentence should be reversed : “I will still sin, but I can cultivate love”.

 

[Latin]

… were created for happiness.

The truth will set you free.

I agree with you PetraG. Do you know the truth that set us free?
If you know, please share it with us.

Thank you in advance.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

Since we have free will, why is there no option to opt out?

Because none of us have LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL.

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.
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God bless

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

I’m not trying to be funny, but how exactly could you ask one for their consent to exist (presuming their non-existence at the time the question is posed)

 

[Vico]

… Since we have free will, why is there no option to opt out? …

We do not have free will in all things but in moral choices.

Catechism

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

51 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

1743 “God willed that man should be left in the hand of his own counsel (cf. Sir 15:14), so that he might of his own accord seek his creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him” ( GS 17 § 1).

 

[MarkRome]

I am

I am going to be judged based on the results of an exam I never asked to take.

I don’t understand why I was given a life and soul that I do not particularly want.

I didn’t agree to be put to this excrutiating test.

i would simply say No

I don’t understand

I didn’t agree

I never asked

I would bet

I also struggle

I don’t see how I

Unless there is an “I” first one cannot ask, agree, say no, understand, struggle, etc.

Has anyone ever said you were self-centered?

 

[Latin]

We do not have free will in all things but in moral choices.

I believe Vico your above sentence is not complete.
I complete it as follows and I prove it as well.

We do not have free will in all things, without God’s gifts of aides the least freedom in moral choices and to choose our salvation.

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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.

Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled that Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide dogma)

Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide dogma.) – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
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Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification. (De fide dogma.) – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance, there is no salvation without it.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

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The Fader William Most collection
St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.
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CCC 301 God does not abandon his creatures to themselves.
He not only gives them being and existence, but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, utter dependence enables them to act and brings them to their final end .
Recognizing this with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[VeryBlessed]

Existence will “ultimately be very good” only if I consistently make the right choices, which I am not guaranteed to do. None of us are guaranteed to do this, which is why the Church teaches that we are inherintely sinful. I can cultivate love in my heart all I like but I will still sin and every sin is capable of damning me. Everyone has the potential to go to hell which is ultimately not very good at all.

The only sin that can really damn you to hell, is the one you’re being tempted to right now, which is rejection of faith. All the rest (ALL!) are freely forgiven in confession. And his Holy Spirit, whom we receive in confirmation, wants to help us be aware especially of those mortal sins that can really damage our eternal soul.

I agree with your basic premise, life is difficult and disappointing. The suffering is epic. But there is a (possible) ending to this to this difficult journey, and it is so completely otherworldly good, all of our sufferings and difficulties here will seem like a single drop of water in an ocean. In his book The Great Divorce, CS Lewis put forth a concept that the goodness of heaven will be so extraordinarily good, that it will reach backwards and make even our whole earthly life seem like heaven.

You were made for heaven and the fullness of God‘s presence. So of course life in this world is going to be difficult. Let that difficulty drive you all the more to press into God. He himself is the great consolation that far outweighs all the difficulties life can dish out.

 

[Wesrock]

Existence is objectively good; non-existence is objectively evil.

Just a brief comment. I agree that existence is good for a multitude of reasons, but non-existence isn’t evil. Evil is the result of privations, and you can only have privations in things that exist. That is a type of gap or “non-being” of a sort (or rather, unactualized potential), but it’s not non-existence simpliciter. Non-existence in itself isn’t evil or good.

 

[rdj69]

What on earth does “non-existence is objectively evil” mean? How can non-existence be anything but neutral?

Because God is both existence itself and goodness itself, it follows that non-existence is a total lack of God, and so a total lack of God, which is total evil because evil simply denotes a lack of a good that should exist.

There are theoretically infinite people who don’t exist, are they all experiencing evil right now?

No, because evil is a lack of a good that should be there; meaning a good which God has willed. Because you exist, it means God has willed your existence, and so your nonexistence would be evil - along with the existence of anyone else who ever has existed or will exist.

Existence will “ultimately be very good” only if I consistently make the right choices, which I am not guaranteed to do.

That’s incorrect; existence is and always will be good, regardless of what you do. What you’re talking about isn’t goodness, it’s something like subjective enjoyment.

every sin is capable of damning me

That’s not really how it works. Christ’s Passion saved us from all sin. Does that mean we will be longer sin? No. It means that our sin will no longer damn us if we accept the gift Christ gave us.

Is eternal torment less objectively evil than non-existence, or would you say the two are equivalent?

To exist in hell is objectively less evil than to not exist at all, yes. Even the devil himself is good insofar as he has existence.