Why are we judged on such a brief flicker of time?

[davidv]

The point is that he has, in fact, put a time limit on us. To say we must come around by the time our body dies is parallel to our aged mother saying (effectively willing a world where it is the case that) once x amount of time has passed, we will no longer have the choice of changing our minds to come visit her.

How can we make sense of the model such that any of the goals or virtues that God wills are furthered by (and only by) allowing us to screw up permanently?

I believe this is a strawman of God’s plan for us.

What goal or good is ONLY achieved if there is the possibility of us falling away completely forever?

This has been addressed quite extensively in your thread “What is so important about free will”.

Granted our attempt to compare to our earthly mother becomes strained, since she did not choose which goals in life we would be motivated to achieve or capable of.

 

[jmcrae]

The point is that he has, in fact, put a time limit on us. To say we must come around by the time our body dies is parallel to our aged mother saying (effectively willing a world where it is the case that) once x amount of time has passed, we will no longer have the choice of changing our minds to come visit her.

We are creatures of habit. Once we have acquired the habit of not visiting our mother, it stays with us forever. No matter how often we tell ourselves, “Some day,” that day never comes.

 

[tonyrey]

The point is that he has, in fact, put a time limit on us.

Time doesn’t exist in the spiritual realm!

 

[Contarini]

The point is that he has, in fact, put a time limit on us. To say we must come around by the time our body dies is parallel to our aged mother saying (effectively willing a world where it is the case that) once x amount of time has passed, we will no longer have the choice of changing our minds to come visit her.

With all due respect, I don’t think you’ve dealt with the point several of us have raised now, which is that eternity isn’t simply an extension of time as we know it in this life. Your earlier response was that this makes all language about eternal life meaningless, but you did not substantiate that extreme claim.

We can say some things analogously about eternal life without assuming that it’s just an extension of time as we know it.

This point is key, and you have ignored it so far. I get that this issue really bothers you, but you need to address it rationally and think through the answers people have raised instead of simply continuing to repeat the same misunderstanding of the orthodox Christian position.

Edwin

 

[Neoplatonist]

With all due respect, I don’t think you’ve dealt with the point several of us have raised now, which is that eternity isn’t simply an extension of time as we know it in this life. Your earlier response was that this makes all language about eternal life meaningless, but you did not substantiate that extreme claim.

We can say some things analogously about eternal life without assuming that it’s just an extension of time as we know it.

This point is key, and you have ignored it so far. I get that this issue really bothers you, but you need to address it rationally and think through the answers people have raised instead of simply continuing to repeat the same misunderstanding of the orthodox Christian position.

Edwin

So, granted that we recognize our language is limited, and that we must be careful not to lean on it too heavily, are we really unable to come up with a better metaphor - one that allows us to make sense out of the model but overcomes the obstacles created by the old one.

Why is it ok for priests to use language like “burning forever in a lake of fire” in order to motivate guilt and rehabilitation if we’re going to hide behind a defense like “language is limited” when the metaphor gets challenged?

My point is exactly this: I have serious doubt that we can come up with a more adequate metaphor that connects with us both emotionally and intellectually and avoids profound conflicts. While the idea that we are tracing a parabola appeals to me as a mathematician, if we flesh that out in terms of love and free will and acceptance and forgiveness, it’s likely to run into the same problems that we had with the linear view. (If not, then excellent - we will have made meaningful progress. Seriously.)

In what way can we possibly make sense of a good judgment for eternity being something we can imagine (mind and heart) enjoying more than we enjoy things like snowflakes and first kisses, and not, thereby, render the state resulting from a bad judgment as something from which a more loving parent would allow us some hope of eventual redemption? And, if we cannot cover the latter, by what metaphor are we to continue claiming that it is, indeed, an infinitely loving parent with infinite power?

In the meantime, I have no viable option but to run with the working analogy that is already in place. If (as it seems) you agree that it is too broken to serve, and we have no “sufficient” replacement (for heart and imagination, as discussed), then how can we speak meaningfully of it at all?

Great discussion, btw. Sincerely.

 

[jmcrae]

And, if we cannot cover the latter, by what metaphor are we to continue claiming that it is, indeed, an infinitely loving parent with infinite power?

The parent who loves all of the children (not just one of them) may find himself or herself in the position of asking the obstinately disobedient child who keeps on playing with matches, and keeps on breaking the furniture and damaging the walls, and keeps on using foul language at the supper table, to move out - not because that child is not loved, but because the other children are loved - and their safety is important, too.

If God were to allow unrepentant murderers into Heaven, it would then become “not Heaven” for the rest of the residents of Heaven - don’t you think?

 

[mattdantuono]

How strange it would be for us to judge a child, choose their future career, their happiness, their everything, based on how they behaved or felt or what they said during one random period of 5 minutes back when they were in 3rd grade.

Now, if our souls live for eternity, as is indicated in the tradition of faith, can we make sense out of how it would seem “just” when God is doing, as far as we can tell, the same thing? What are 70 years compared to eternity but a blink? What are we to God but naive, feeble-minded children? Why then give us the power in such a situation to determine our eternal fate?

Let me be clear: I’m not saying he shouldn’t. I’m not saying I’d do it differently. I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

I have to say that I agree almost entirely with you here. It does indeed seem very unfair to judge someone for what seems like such a short period of time.

I say I ALMOST entirely because, thankfully, the tradition of the faith adds a little more to the context of this situation. It is true that we are to God little but naive, feeble-minded children. It is also true, though, that God knows our state, loves us, and judges accordingly. Were I to judge my 4 year old son, I would judge him while keeping in mind his capacity for right judgement (low…quite low). God, too, knows EVERYTHING about my past, my present situation, my current level of self-control, the moral education I have received, and any other important factors. He knows our weakness.

Another important (and, I would say, inspiring) point is that we are not alone. God has not set the chessboard and left us to play while he stands idly by. He not only sustains our very existence by his creative action, but he has also reached down into the very depths of our sin and filth to pull us out. He is with us, helping us, every moment.

Yes, God judges us on our decisions in this life, but He is not just reading the report; He is actively involved in the process. Just look at Jesus. He did not sit back and cast judgements. He reached into peoples’ lives and helped. He came for sinners, and He is still here for sinners.

So, to summarize: God judges, but He judges omnisciently and omnibenevolently (if that is not word, I am making it one!).