Why Catholicism ??

[lovey2008]

I haven’t been a part of this program, but I have heard of a Why Catholic? program. Would that be any good for the OP to look into?

 

[sara888]

Mainstream( traditional) Protestants do profess and follow the OT and NT or the apostolic succession, Lutherans , Episcopaliens.etc…

So if you dont like the Catholic Doctrine, mabey you can try a Mainstream Traditional Sect… however, the one true church will always be the Universal Catholic Church…

Sara

 

[Tom]

Mainstream( traditional) Protestants do profess and follow the OT and NT or the apostolic succession, Lutherans , Episcopaliens.etc…

So if you dont like the Catholic Doctrine, mabey you can try a Mainstream Traditional Sect… however, the one true church will always be the Universal Catholic Church…

Sara

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but, don’t most protestants use the Old Testament which deletes (since the 16th century) the deuterocanon? Therefore they really don’t follow the Old Testament taught from by our Lord, Jesus the Christ and the Catholic Church.

 

[JezCat]

Originally Posted by zingo227

assuming that I am a generic Christian (which I like to think I am why would I want to be a Catholic Christian vs. any other brand of Christianity ?

I spent the first 30 years of my life being anti-Catholic mainly because I never took the time to research what Catholic’s actually believe. I never even bothered to ask a knowledgeable Catholic. Instead I felt assured that various ex-Catholics and the evangelical church leaders already knew the truth so it would be much easier to simply “get the facts” from them.

I hope you can see the obvious problem with this method of information gathering. By comparison, it would be similar to an independant voter asking a Republican or Democrat to explain the opposing political party.

Not until I did my own research, through fervent prayer asking for God’s will and wisdom and not my own, did a true light shine on the Catholic Church.

But to answer your question let me answer it with a question for you:

If you had an opportunity to freely attend and learn at an Ivy League school to study law, then why would anyone instead settle for an education thru online correspondence courses? Perhaps you might learn enough to practice law someday but you would miss the fullness of the truth one receives if he learns from a school with such a rich history and foundation.

 

[sadie2723]

zingo227:

assuming that I am a generic Christian (which I like to think I am

why would I want to be a Catholic Christian vs. any other brand of Christianity ?

and why do I even have to pick a brand of Christianity ?

I have some limited knowledge of how xnity split around 1000AD between Catholics & Eastern Orthodox, then split again around 1500 between Catholics the current infinitude of protestant denominations, and then the mormons, jeh-wits etc

But don’t all these Christian theologies still believe these 3 creeds ?

apostles, nicene & athanasian

3 creeds

and I thought that Christianity is salvation by faith which means I just have to believe right ? yes if I truly believed then I would also try to achieve some positive works in this life, but what are those works ? has GOD’s will been revealed to us little xtians telling us what we are supposed to do ?

Those 3 creeds talk about being judged for our works, but they don’t specify what the works are because that would be salvation by works which isn’t Christianity because it’s missing the free will part

salvation by faith or faith + works ?

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

Why do it? Why be a Catholic? I know that this is a hard question to deal with, as I have delt with it myself. I am a Catholic convert. It took ten years of study to get me here. But, I can say that in the end it came down to just a few things for me. I am going to list them here.

1. In many things, change is good…but religion is not one of them. The Catholic church has been the same for 2000 years. It has remained constant in views. When Jesus told Peter that he was the Rock, this is what he had in mind. He wanted a religious organization that remained constant. That is what the Catholic church has done.
2. Public opinion has nothing to do with religion. I will not be a part of any religion that is based in democratic principals. Public opinion should have no impact on the beliefs that a church teaches. Period. This is why we now see churches saying things like gay weddings, birth control, and abortion are ok. They have bent to societal pressure. A church should not do this…the Catholic church does not.
3. Faith Alone was invented durring the Reformation to give the Reformation a reason for being. It is not a Biblical concept. There is no place in scripture where it is indicated, and it cannot be defended.
4. Scripture Alone was invented durring the Reformation to give the Reformation a reason for being. It is not a Biblical concept. There is no place in scripture where it is indicated, and it cannot be defended.
5. Once Saved Always Saved was invented and has no Biblical basis.
6. There is NOTHING that the Catholic Church teaches that can’t be backed up by scripture. No other denomination can make this claim. Period.

In short…there is only one true church, and I am proud to say that I am a member of it.

Brad

 

[Micael]

Why Catholicism?

Because it certaitnly appears to be the Church founded by Christ. Lets see…

Founded upon Christ and given authority BY Christ as Peter(the 1st Pope) was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven to bind and loosen here ON EARTH. Matt 16:17-19 and Matt 18:18.

Through its authority it is the sole body of complete truth: 1 Tim 3:15. Without its teachings and the laws of Christ anyone who makes his own interpretaton of Scripture will lead to his own (and others) downfall. 2 Peter 3:16-17

All this is reconfirmed by Early Church Fathers starting with Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch (students of John the Apostle) with transfered the oral word of Christ and the apostles directly. The oral Word("by word of mouth, and “traditions delivered”, word “heard”) described by Paul in 2 Thes 2:15, 1 Corith 11:2, and 2 Tim 1:13. All (including Ireneus, Clement of Rome, etc)which agree upon the Real Presence of Christ, Baptism with Holy Water, an authoritative Church run by Bishops Priest and Deacons, and bound by the church in Rome. ALL identical to the present nearly 2000 year old Catholic Church.

Lastly, from LOGIC alone, Church of Christ MUST be the only church that has lasted almost 2000 years *its the lone church with such a historical claim… even Ignatius mentions “where Jesus is, there is the CATHOLIC Church” and he lived from 30-107 AD (letter to the Smyrnaeans.) Thus, since Christ stated clearly that he would protect his church and be with his church forever (there will be apostates FROM his Church, but his Church can not become apostate) - [Matt 28:20 ,John 14:18] AND also promising that the Holy Spirit would be with his church forever starting from 33 AD. Then one MUST conclude that the Catholic Church IS the “Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth” Paul describes in 1 Timothy 3:15.

Read the earliest Apostolic Church Fathers (from a Protestant site none-the-less) here ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.toc.html or any other Church Fathers site… there are several.

 

[Nicene]

and I thought that Christianity is salvation by faith which means I just have to believe right ? yes if I truly believed then I would also try to achieve some positive works in this life, but what are those works ? has GOD’s will been revealed to us little xtians telling us what we are supposed to do ?

Those 3 creeds talk about being judged for our works, but they don’t specify what the works are because that would be salvation by works which isn’t Christianity because it’s missing the free will part

salvation by faith or faith + works ?

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
Reply With Quote

Yes Christ has told us what to do. The first question is what does it mean to believe? Christ said if we believed in him we would do the works that he does. He shows by example, then tells us directly here.

*Mt 7:21: "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22: On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
24: "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; *

What is the will of the Father? That we do the works that Christ did? (and the Father does for us daily) Christ tells us below.

Mt 25:31: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; **35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'** 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44: Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45: Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

What happens to those who believed but did not do the works that Christ did at the end of Matthew 25 (faith alone)? And what happens to those who through their belief did what Christ did (faith plus works)? He said to follow his commands.

So what is faith/belief? Both groups believed in Christ, they both say Lord Lord. Which ones who profess Christ does Christ consider to be of his flock?

In the catholic faith there are spiritual works of mercy and corporal works of mercy.

The Spiritual works are:

To give counsel to the doubtful
To instruct the ignorant
To admonish sinners
To confort the afflicted
To forgive offenses
To bear with patience the troublesome
To pray for the living and the dead

The Corporal works of mercy are:

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To shelter the needy
To visit the sick
To visit the imprisoned
To bury the dead

Hope that helps

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[magdelaine]

Good, succinct quotes above on the faith/works controversy… You nailed it. A book I love love love is Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic . If you want the Biblical Church, Cuddy shows that with the RCC you’ve got it.

 

[Agrazing_Mace]

“I think that a lot of people these days have the notion in their heads that, “when I look for a community or denomination to become a part of, I want one that fits the personal beliefs and values that I already have.” This arises from the fact that a lot of times people never think to ask, “are theses beliefs and values that I hold to, truely what Jesus wants me to believe?” There is so much emphasis placed on what “I think Jesus is,” and not enough real, genuine inquiry into what Jesus actually is. In other words, there is often no serious endeavor to discover the truth. So for starters, I can recommend that you don’t look for a denomination or group that makes you feel comfortable with what you believe; instead, strive for objective fact and truth. Thinking of the matter in this persepective, you will hopefully be much more open to the Catholic Faith.”

---

mlcampbell, whomever you are, thank you. As a constant defender of the faith in daily life, I admire your response. You have verbalized my exact thoughts for all outside of a most-enriching Catholic faith. Of all discussions between non-Catholics and Catholics, you have given the most profoundly simple, yet accurate reply. I would hope that you share your above response with many others as much as possible.

Due to such deep dissension between denominations, caused by years and years of proud (pride, in the sinful tone) people’s unwillingness to accept objective fact and truth, we are at a sad juncture in time. So, what do we do, and where do we begin?

Well, I’m sure the Magisterium has pondered this, and has constructed a plan. I’m confident they have a thorough strategy to spread The Word to all across the world. For us, in the laity, on the other hand, I truly believe it comes down to a few simple things. In order to gain open-mindedness, and acceptance, from those living outside of the Catholic faith, we must take baby steps… baby steps that will take years and years of nurturing and patience. Those things are:

 1) **Prayer**- what is more powerful, and efficient, than offering-up 
     prayers for the misguided? The key here is a healthy dose 
     of humility. Rather than being head-strong in feeling you're 
     *right* and others are *wrong*, always ask God for the grace to  
     communicate more effectively. 

 2) **Live by example**- act in accordance with Catholic 
     doctrine- walk the walk if you're gonna talk the talk. Do not 
     leave yourself open to speculation. Doing this also requires 
     humility. Know that you are not perfect, yet strive to be. 
     Yes, imitate Christ to the best of your ability.

 3) **Educating the inquisitive**- Let's not deny those yearning 
     to be educated an educated response. This will require 
     more "study" time on our part, as Catholics, in order to best 
     communicate to any given "audience". The struggle here is 
     to remain objective, and yes, humble, in your prosyletizing. 
     Really, it may not be the message that is lacking... it may 
     be the messenger.

Hopefully you return to this forum and read my response. I just wanted to thank you for your brilliantly simple response to the original post.

 

[Agrazing_Mace]

"Welcome to our forum!

Protestant denominations do not believe the Nicene creed. They reject that we are a holy catholic and apostolic church. If those creeds are your standards, then you have stumbled upon the truth of Sacred Tradition, which would also say that the fulness of Christianity can only be found in the Catholic faith, which has endured since the time of Christ.

I was an Evangelical Protestant for 22 years of my adult life before discovering that Catholic theology was much more Biblical. What you describe used to be my litmus test for categorizing Christian from cult. My own previous bias prevented me from seeing the multitude of scriptures that actually support the idea that works are not just a by product of salvation, they are a condition of it. Consider the following

1. Salvation = 100% God’s grace
2. God’s grace gives us faith and the ability to obey (works). Without this grace we cannot have faith and we cannot obey. Therefore, we cannot take credit for faith or works. We always have free will to reject God’s grace, so we are responsible missing out on salvation. But we do not earn it and can never take credit for it.
   3)Therefore, salvation = faith and works."

---

As always, I enjoy reading your responses, Petra. It’s always good to hear from an intellectual. You seem very polished in your education. I admire the ambition you exude in the personal interpretations you share.

I especially respect the fact that you reanalyzed your faith at a later stage in the game (22 years into your adult life). Most are content where they are at and just ride-out the rest of their life that way.

I also like your 3-step break-down. If I could just add that we can gain more graces- but only if it is God’s will, of course. We do this most easily via the seven sacraments provided to us. I guess I must use the term “earn” a little more loosely than you, that’s all.

Technically, you are correct in saying that God gives us the grace to do anything and everything imaginable, negating any personal accomplishment, if you will. We could not think a single thought without His say so. Still, we shouldn’t trap ourselves in over-complicating vocabulary.
Example: In your message above, you used the word “cult” in
a certain tone. Hopefully, you know that by definition, we are a
cult, along with any other organization with a pyramid structure
that involves itself with any rituals. Still, I would not over-
complicate your use of the word because I realize your
intended use of the word through mere context.

My point is that by splitting hairs over the word “earn”, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot. Besides, we can gain more graces when spurred (by God) to do something for His glory.

We can acquire more graces through such things as confession, communion, marriage, etc., since He promised it- as long as they are approached with good intent and most of all, faith in Christ.

 

[Ignatius]

zingo227:

why would I want to be a Catholic Christian vs. any other brand of Christianity ?

Simply put, because it is the Church which Jesus Christ founded. The Catholic Church can be trace straight back through the prelates directly to the Apostles. Jesus said that He would be with His Church until the end of time and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

Well, what did Jesus Himself say? “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved but he who does the will of the Father.”
If we truely follow Christ, we must do all that He commanded.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[petra]

Agrazing Mace:

As always, I enjoy reading your responses, Petra. It’s always good to hear from an intellectual. You seem very polished in your education. I admire the ambition you exude in the personal interpretations you share.

I especially respect the fact that you reanalyzed your faith at a later stage in the game (22 years into your adult life). Most are content where they are at and just ride-out the rest of their life that way.

I also like your 3-step break-down. If I could just add that we can gain more graces- but only if it is God’s will, of course. We do this most easily via the seven sacraments provided to us. I guess I must use the term “earn” a little more loosely than you, that’s all.

Technically, you are correct in saying that God gives us the grace to do anything and everything imaginable, negating any personal accomplishment, if you will. We could not think a single thought without His say so. Still, we shouldn’t trap ourselves in over-complicating vocabulary.
Example: In your message above, you used the word “cult” in
a certain tone. Hopefully, you know that by definition, we are a
cult, along with any other organization with a pyramid structure
that involves itself with any rituals. Still, I would not over-
complicate your use of the word because I realize your
intended use of the word through mere context.

My point is that by splitting hairs over the word “earn”, we may be shooting ourselves in the foot. Besides, we can gain more graces when spurred (by God) to do something for His glory.

We can acquire more graces through such things as confession, communion, marriage, etc., since He promised it- as long as they are approached with good intent and most of all, faith in Christ.

Why thank you.

In Protestant circles, “cult” is synonymous with “counterfeit” or “unorthodox” to the extent that salvation is not possible (or highly improbable) in that system. While there is another definition that may accurately apply to organized religion in general, we would convey something very unintentional if we were to refer to Catholicism as a cult. It is not splitting hairs, but anticipating how others interpret our speech.

The word “earn” has similar potential pitfalls—especially as Protestants don’t realize we define 2 types of graces: actual graces and sanctifying grace. They only use the word grace in reference to sanctification: grace is the unmerited favor God shows to us on the basis of the finished work of Christ. However, they wouldn’t dispute the fact that we are stewards of blessings (actual graces) that God gives us, and “he who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much.” (Luke 16:10) In that regard, we merit additional responsibility or actual graces to serve God in a greater capacity. But I would advise that Catholics NOT suggest to Protestants that we earn graces because they will certainly misunderstand what is meant.

Blessings,
petra

 

[AquinasXVI]

There are only two things on earth, the Catholic Church and the world.
-GK Chesterton

in XT.

 

[Agrazing_Mace]

petra:

Why thank you.

In Protestant circles, “cult” is synonymous with “counterfeit” or “unorthodox” to the extent that salvation is not possible (or highly improbable) in that system. While there is another definition that may accurately apply to organized religion in general, we would convey something very unintentional if we were to refer to Catholicism as a cult. It is not splitting hairs, but anticipating how others interpret our speech.

The word “earn” has similar potential pitfalls—especially as Protestants don’t realize we define 2 types of graces: actual graces and sanctifying grace. They only use the word grace in reference to sanctification: grace is the unmerited favor God shows to us on the basis of the finished work of Christ. However, they wouldn’t dispute the fact that we are stewards of blessings (actual graces) that God gives us, and “he who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much.” (Luke 16:10) In that regard, we merit additional responsibility or actual graces to serve God in a greater capacity. But I would advise that Catholics NOT suggest to Protestants that we earn graces because they will certainly misunderstand what is meant.

Blessings,
petra

Point well taken. I guess I’ll bow to the senior member this time.

 

[sara888]

TOM,

Confessional Lutherans: The Holy Bible, The Three Chief Symbols (Catholic Creeds), The Augsburg Confession, The Apology of the Augsburg Confession, The Large and Small Catechisms of Dr. Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles, The Formula of Concord, and the Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope, together with the Liturgy of the Lutheran Church.

Confessional Episcopalians: The Holy Bible, The Three Chief Symbols (Catholic Creeds), The Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, The Book of Common Prayer." understanding, in confessional Lutheran circles, as to what is authoritative. The Holy Scriptures, of course, are the only rule and norm for faith and life. But we also hold that the Lutheran Confessions, listed above and published in the Book of Concord, 1580, are a correct exposition of Sacred Scripture, and a clear confession of the catholic faith.

SARA

 

[Stephen_Butler]

zingo227:

assuming that I am a generic Christian (which I like to think I am

why would I want to be a Catholic Christian vs. any other brand of Christianity ?

and why do I even have to pick a brand of Christianity ?

I chose to convert to the Catholic Church, irregardless of whether I agreed with all of its doctrines or not, because I became convinced by scripture and history that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built upon the rock that is Peter. I chose to lend my support to the Church that Christ built and I chose to work within it rather than standing outside of it pointing out what I thought were flaws.

I felt then and still feel now that the Roman Catholic Church is the Church that Christ built and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. 2000 years later that promise is as true today as it was then. I feel that the Church is a great leviathan which supports all of the bureacracy, scars, squabbles, and mistakes that one would reasonably expect from any institution cared for by men given that the gates of hell have unceasingly tried to tear those walls down since the day they were erected.

I feel that Christ gave his apostles the authority to teach the road to salvation, to teach what Christ and the Lord expect from us, to teach us love, faith, and hope. I feel that this authority continues today through the men who have accepted this responsibility as the apostles passed from the earth and generation upon generation of bishops after them.

zingo227:

I have some limited knowledge of how xnity split around 1000AD between Catholics & Eastern Orthodox, then split again around 1500 between Catholics the current infinitude of protestant denominations, and then the mormons, jeh-wits etc

I am of the opinion that we should learn from history but not judge it. Many of the principles which we hold true today including the separation of Church and state and the perils involved in wars fought for religious purposes are principles that the Catholic Church has taught us by learning them the hard way. It is also true that the events, ideas and ideals which occurred in the past would have looked very very different had we been there at the time.

zingo227:

But don’t all these Christian theologies still believe these 3 creeds ?

No, they do not. Some are very close to the Catholic teaching, closer than many would give credit for, but taken as a whole no, even if these creeds are spoken (such as the apostles creed in the Lutheran church) different interpretations are given for them.

zingo227:

and I thought that Christianity is salvation by faith which means I just have to believe right ?

That’s a big can of worms. There are a great many places in scripture which say that if something is done or believed or not done that salvation will be achieved or this person will be blessed. The most important thing to realize is that these statements do not live in a vacuum. Saying that he who believes will have salvation does not mean that is the only thing which is required. The statements are all true but they do not imply exclusivity. You have to read the rest of the bible … not just select snips from Romans.

I’ll set it for you this way. Read part of the new testament one more time, just the gospels, Acts, and Romans. Every time you hear Jesus or one of the apostles say that a) some thing you do will bring you salvation, b) some thing you do or fail to do will cause you to be punished c) some thing you do will cause you to be blessed then jot that line down. Use an electronic copy of the bible and you can cut and paste the lines into notepad for convenience.

Once you are done, go back and read those lines. Ask yourself this. If you read each of those lines which, in today’s culture and in the English language, seem to imply that they are absolute and exclusive, see if they make sense taken together. You will find that they do not until you remove the implication of exclusivity. But do this for yourself. You will reach the understanding that one verse does not a bible make and that all of the teachings and expectations have to be taken together to get the complete picture.

As for the Catholic Church, there is only one which I will mention here, Matthew 16:18-19. It is a drop in the ocean, but a good one:

“And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Protestants sometimes try to play some very weak language games to keep this from meaning what it very clearly says. Read it for yourself. You decide. I decided to become Catholic. I would encourage you to join me.

 

[Stephen_Butler]

zingo227:

Question: “Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?”

It’s a pointless argument. If salvation is by faith alone and, as the bible clearly states, “Faith without works is dead” then you are only arguing about smoke. The end is the same. Those who have faith do good works because it is what Christ leads us to do. It does not matter if it is required or not because the truly faithful are going to do them either way.

Me, I quote a protestant preacher I saw on television, just some lady on the tube. She nailed it with this: “Faith without works is dead, but works without faith ? That’s dead too.”

zingo227:

Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church.

This was not the primary issue in the schism. Between the reality of an enormous revolt and the politics and grass roots beliefs that fueled it there is an enormous gulf. If you have to take a very complex issue and reduce it to something simple, the widespread abuse of indulgences was the most significant issue. In academic debate, it is easy to see the link between the indulgences debate and the sola fide argument, but the countless uneducated men and women who laid down their lives on both sides of this schism could not have told you even the most basic principles of those arguments. Don’t ask yourself why Martin Luther revolted. Ask yourself why the peasants did, and there lies understanding. It’s a very complex issue.

 

[john_ennis]

I’d be looking for a Church which is inexplicably obstinate about holding onto beliefs which fly in the face of everything contemporary cultures now “know.”

I’d be impressed by a system of beliefs and morals that stood still while every other system continuously moved on to new beliefs and morals. And by standing still, it was always ahead, having never left a destination everyone else was repeatedly “arriving” at.

What religion teaches the same about divorce that it taught 200 years ago? Or 1,000? About artificial contraception? (And there’s homosexual behavior, abortion, fornication, polygamy…)

Peace.
John

 

[MariaG]

Originally posted by Stephen Butler
It’s a pointless argument. If salvation is by faith alone and, as the bible clearly states, “Faith without works is dead” then you are only arguing about smoke. The end is the same. Those who have faith do good works because it is what Christ leads us to do. It does not matter if it is required or not because the truly faithful are going to do them either way.

Me, I quote a protestant preacher I saw on television, just some lady on the tube. She nailed it with this: “Faith without works is dead, but works without faith ? That’s dead too.”

This was not the primary issue in the schism. Between the reality of an enormous revolt and the politics and grass roots beliefs that fueled it there is an enormous gulf. If you have to take a very complex issue and reduce it to something simple, the widespread abuse of indulgences was the most significant issue. In academic debate, it is easy to see the link between the indulgences debate and the sola fide argument, but the countless uneducated men and women who laid down their lives on both sides of this schism could not have told you even the most basic principles of those arguments. Don’t ask yourself why Martin Luther revolted. Ask yourself why the peasants did, and there lies understanding. It’s a very complex issue.

Yet the cry of the Reformation was FAITH ALONE.

“Faith without works is dead, but works without faith ? That’s dead too.”

This has always been the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church contrary to those who misrepresent Catholic teachings and say Catholics think we can Earn our way to heaven by good works with or without faith. We can’t get to heaven by our good works and good works are only good because of the Grace God gave us to do them in the first place.

God Bless,
Maria

Just in case, I do not think you are misrepresenting Catholic. teachings.

 

[sadie2723]

MariaG:

Yet the cry of the Reformation was FAITH ALONE.

“Faith without works is dead, but works without faith ? That’s dead too.”

This has always been the consistent teaching of the Catholic Church contrary to those who misrepresent Catholic teachings and say Catholics think we can Earn our way to heaven by good works with or without faith. We can’t get to heaven by our good works and good works are only good because of the Grace God gave us to do them in the first place.

God Bless,
Maria

Amen sister!

Just in case, I do not think you are misrepresenting Catholic. teachings.