Why dear friend do you not believe in the Real Presence

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Tomdstone said:
Did time exist for the Apostles? Did time exist for Jesus? Why did Jesus ask "“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” since time does not exist for God and Jesus knew that the cup would not be taken away?
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What does time existing for us humans, like the Apostles, have to do with it? Or that Jesus as a human being was in time? God can still, from eternity, offer his glorified body in the sacrament of the Eucharist at that moment in time of its institution.
 
susanlo said:
I don’t think I will be able to understand it. Thank you for trying.

I read some of what Thomas Aquinas wrote on it today and I don’t think I can grasp it. I am a scientific person and I don’t think I can make my brain work in a way that can understand it. The physical substance remains unchanged, yet something which I can’t put my finger on does change. This change is not physical, but it isn’t merely spiritual or merely the meaning of the elements.

I think to answer the question of the post would be mostly because I can’t even understand it. I don’t know if all 3000 of the new Christians in Acts 2 suddenly comprehended this idea after a short sermon before becoming (non-separated) Christians, and today we just struggle with it. Or maybe understanding it isn’t necessary to be a Christian and understand what Communion is actually all about - which is remembering Jesus’ sacrifice to provide salvation for man.
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It is a difficult concept to understand. I do believe in many ways the Holy Spirit helps us to grasp transubstantiation. A consecrated host tastes like and unconsecrated one, consecrated wine tastes like unconsecrated wine. I do know however, when I receive the consecrated host & wine I know I am receiving the body, blood, soul, & divinity of Jesus Christ.

It wasn’t science or merely philosophy that gave me that certainty. It was faith and the Holy Spirit.
 
Horton said:
It is a difficult concept to understand. I do believe in many ways the Holy Spirit helps us to grasp transubstantiation. A consecrated host tastes like and unconsecrated one, consecrated wine tastes like unconsecrated wine. I do know however, when I receive the consecrated host & wine I know I am receiving the body, blood, soul, & divinity of Jesus Christ.

It wasn’t science or merely philosophy that gave me that certainty. It was faith and the Holy Spirit.
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Thank you, Horton, that is the only explanation that makes sense to me. It reminds me of the renewal or so called Charismatic movement in our part of the world about 25 years ago. People experiencing the gifts of the Holy Spirit usually manifested in Tongues. Some may have been legit and some not. Whatever was real certainly was from faith and the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, some who had the gift said the ones who don’t lack faith and aren’t really believers. The other side sometimes declared them to be imagining and misrepresenting truth. Neither viewpoint of the other was helpful.

How do we assess for the other person what their level of faith and openeness to the Holy Spirit is?
 
susanlo said:
I don’t think I will be able to understand it. Thank you for trying.

I read some of what Thomas Aquinas wrote on it today and I don’t think I can grasp it. I am a scientific person and I don’t think I can make my brain work in a way that can understand it. The physical substance remains unchanged, yet something which I can’t put my finger on does change. This change is not physical, but it isn’t merely spiritual or merely the meaning of the elements.

I think to answer the question of the post would be mostly because I can’t even understand it. I don’t know if all 3000 of the new Christians in Acts 2 suddenly comprehended this idea after a short sermon before becoming (non-separated) Christians, and today we just struggle with it. Or maybe understanding it isn’t necessary to be a Christian and understand what Communion is actually all about - which is remembering Jesus’ sacrifice to provide salvation for man.
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It is a mystery of faith. The central mystery of Catholic faith.

Mystery in theological terms means, God has revealed it to us, but we cannot fully grasp what God has revealed. including via science or philosophy. We never fully grasp it. Aquinas used the tool of philosophy, towards grasping what God has revealed, but it can only go so far.

The Christians in Acts were no different. We accept by faith, the mysteries that God has revealed. We continue to seek deeper understanding, for a lifetime.

I am a convert to Christianity. There wasn’t a sermon where I suddenly believed in the Real Presence. It was during Lent, before my baptism. I spent a lot of time in prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, thinking it was an awesome thing what God had revealed, but not sure that it wasn’t just people believing for the sake of believing. Like belief in God itself, as I came from atheism, and thought at one time that faith was believing, just because.

Faith itself, in my experience is no less a mystery of God, and is miraculous. 3000 converts is a miraculous event!

Prayer, is where we participate in the life of the Holy Trinity. I recommend you pray.
 
Tomdstone said:
Did time exist for the Apostles? Did time exist for Jesus? Why did Jesus ask "“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” since time does not exist for God and Jesus knew that the cup would not be taken away?
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YES BUT:D

Jesus in the example you shared in Jesus in his humanity; NOT Jesus as GOD

And indeed, Jesus was always ALSO God and knew everything that would happen to him, yet he still assented to His birth, life, Passion & death.

what an awesome God we have:thumbsup:

GBY
 
Horton said:
It is a difficult concept to understand. I do believe in many ways the Holy Spirit helps us to grasp transubstantiation. A consecrated host tastes like and unconsecrated one, consecrated wine tastes like unconsecrated wine. I do know however, when I receive the consecrated host & wine I know I am receiving the body, blood, soul, & divinity of Jesus Christ.

It wasn’t science or merely philosophy that gave me that certainty. It was faith and the Holy Spirit.
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AMEN:D:thumbsup:

GBY
 
Tomdstone said:
It seems a bit problematical to have Christ’s glorified body and blood present at the Last Supper, before the Crucifixion.
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Blacksword said:
No it isn’t. God is outside of time and therefore not bound by “before” or “after”. It’s no more problematic than is God the Son being present from the foundation of the world, billions of years before his birth in Bethelehem.
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Sooooo… If it is the same flesh and blood, the same soul and Divinity… Then it has to be able to die, while that same human can die, right?

The Eucharist at the Last Supper was NOT the glorified Christ. And in fact, had some of the meal been preserved from Friday to Sunday, what was wine would be Blood and Divinity, what was bread would be Body and Divinity, until the Resurrection. The soul has split from the body, and so real concomitance no longer obtains. The hypostatic union does, though.

As for the claim about Augustine - you must be careful with the subtleties… John 6:53 is indeed figurative, as any Catholic will tell you, since we will say those newly baptized can certainly go to Heaven without consuming the Eucharist. But the rest of the teaching, about the “thing itself,” is not said to be figurative by Augustine.

Original languages help too… Augustine did not speak English (nor did the Evangelists).
 
Wannano said:
Thank you, Horton, that is the only explanation that makes sense to me. It reminds me of the renewal or so called Charismatic movement in our part of the world about 25 years ago. People experiencing the gifts of the Holy Spirit usually manifested in Tongues. Some may have been legit and some not. Whatever was real certainly was from faith and the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, some who had the gift said the ones who don’t lack faith and aren’t really believers. The other side sometimes declared them to be imagining and misrepresenting truth. Neither viewpoint of the other was helpful.

How do we assess for the other person what their level of faith and openeness to the Holy Spirit is?
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I don’t think we can entirely. I know of a couple of Catholics who would call themselves faithful devout Catholics but their observable behavior indicates otherwise. However, I don’t know their hearts or souls, I don’t know if they ask God for the grace & strength to change, I don’t know their level of faith or openness to the Holy Spirit.

The reality with the Holy Spirit is we will not be forced to accept the gifts given to us, we have to cooperated with Him to use the gifts.
 
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Originally Posted by susanlo View Post
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"Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: Eat my flesh, and drink my blood; John*6:34 describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise… …very interesting understanding of fetal development and breast-**

My dear friend susanio,

You have posted much on this thread for which I thank you:)

However you have not replied to my responses to you on POST #154, 155. & 157

Is there some reason for that?

God Bess you!

Patrick
 
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