Why did Biblical characters use divination? Even the Christians in Acts 1 cast lots. The Catechism and Summa Theologica speak against it... is this no

[TexasLoneStar]

In Acts 1:24-26 it is used to determine which man God willed to take Judas’ place

And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

That goes beyond flipping a coin and leaving God out of the equation. It is trying to determine the will of God through it. I am ex-pagan and many of my divination rites consisted of me asking yes/no questions through essentially a method similar to casting lots.

Further more the Catechism specifically forbids it

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

And St. Aquinas’ similarly condemns it in the Summa Theologica

It is written in the Decretals (XXVI, qu. v, can. Sortes): “We decree that the casting of lots, by which means you make up your mind in all your undertakings, and which the Fathers have condemned, is nothing but divination and witchcraft. For which reason we wish them to be condemned altogether, and henceforth not to be mentioned among Christians, and we forbid the practice thereof under pain of anathema.”

However St. Aquinas concedes later on in the article

If, however, there be urgent necessity it is lawful to seek the divine judgment by casting lots, provided due reverence be observed.

There is a problem with this logic:

St. Aquinas’ held there to be 3 types of commandments from the Law:

1. Moral
2. Judicial
3. Ceremonial

Divination would fall under the First Commandment (which is what it is sectioned under in the Catechism) and thus would be a moral law.

Yet, God’s moral law never changes.

How could God allow a moral commandment that never changes to be practiced not just under the “necessity” of electing Matthias, but just in general in the rest of the Bible? God is giving His will through stones? How can this possibly not be some form of Judaized idolatry?

It’s really upset my faith and all answers I’ve got so far have only frustrated me further. I’m upset enough to the point where I am considering just leaving the faith. It seems like such a blatant contradiction that the CCC and St. Aquinas and early Church would condemn it as witch craft… the Apostles were literally committing witch craft? What? How do I even justify that?

 

[Vico]

…

Asking the Holy Trinity for help is not divination. Catholic Encylopedia

Divination
The seeking after knowledge of future or hidden things by inadequate means. The means being inadequate they must, therefore, the supplemented by some power which is represented all through history as coming from gods or evil spirits. Hence the word divination has a sinister signification.
…
Divination is not, as we have seen, foretelling what comes from necessity or what generally happens, or foretelling what God reveals or what can be discovered by human effort, but it is the usurpation of knowledge of the future, i.e. arriving at it by inadequate or improper means.

Graham, E. (1909). Divination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05048b.htm

 

[TexasLoneStar]

Asking the Holy Trinity for help is not divination.

It’s not about who they were seeking help from, it’s the methodology through which they are doing it which distresses me.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Asking the Holy Trinity for help is not divination.

It’s not about who they were seeking help from, it’s the methodology through which they are doing it which distresses me.

I posted more. Divination is not foretelling what God reveals.

 

[TexasLoneStar]

I posted more. Divination is not foretelling what God reveals.

I’m just really confused I guess because St. Aquinas explictly says it is:

Objection 2. There is, seemingly, nothing unlawful in the observances which the Scriptures relate as being practiced by holy men. Now both in the Old and in the New Testament we find holy men practicing the casting of lots. For it is related (Joshua 7:14, sqq.) that Josue, at the Lord’s command, pronounced sentence by lot on Achan who had stolen of the anathema. Again Saul, by drawing lots, found that his son Jonathan had eaten honey (1 Samuel 14:58, sqq.): Jonas, when fleeing from the face of the Lord, was discovered and thrown into the sea (Jonah 1:7, sqq.): Zacharias was chosen by lot to offer incense (Luke 1:9): and the apostles by drawing lots elected Matthias to the apostleship (Acts 1:26). Therefore it would seem that divination by lots is not unlawful.

and later goes on, in his reply to his objection, to say it was:

It is written in the Decretals (XXVI, qu. v, can. Sortes): “We decree that the casting of lots, by which means you make up your mind in all your undertakings, and which the Fathers have condemned, is nothing but divination and witchcraft. For which reason we wish them to be condemned altogether, and henceforth not to be mentioned among Christians, and we forbid the practice thereof under pain of anathema.”

 

[Sunsetclouds]

I’m afraid I dont know the answer, but I’m definitely interested in knowing the answer.

Also regarding this:

“It’s really upset my faith and all answers I’ve got so far have only frustrated me further. I’m upset enough to the point where I am considering just leaving the faith. It seems like such a blatant contradiction that the CCC and St. Aquinas and early Church would condemn it as witch craft… the Apostles were literally committing witch craft? What? How do I even justify that?”

I would say pray on it, ask God and keep searching until you find the answer. Dont jump ship just yet. All questions you have, have most likely been asked before and yet even other theologians such as Augustine or Aquinas did not leave over it. Keep seeking and praying on it. I’m definitely going to look into it now too.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Besides the fact that it is not divination, this was done before Pentecost. Once the Apostles received the Holy Spirit there was no need for casting lots, so you do not see this type of episode again in the rest of Acts.

 

[Walk-worthy]

It’s really upset my faith and all answers I’ve got so far have only frustrated me further.

Wow! A lot of scholarly mumbojumbo! Consider John’s gospel Chp14:6
Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

 

[TexasLoneStar]

Wow! A lot of scholarly mumbojumbo! Consider John’s gospel Chp14:6
Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

Sorry I like to look deeper into theology rather than just posting sticky-notes of inspirational Scripture verses on my wall and then going on about my day never questioning deeper aspects of the faith.

What’s the point of your post? If you don’t have anything valuable to contribute to my actual concerns then why post as opposed to just moving on?

 

[TexasLoneStar]

Dont jump ship just yet. All questions you have, have most likely been asked before and yet even other theologians such as Augustine or Aquinas did not leave over it.

You’re right. I’m rash in a lot of things I do. Thank you Sun.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Ok my initial reaction to the thread title was an eye roll and I thought this would be a simple answer. But you did such a great job of laying out exactly what the issue was and using solid theological thinking and citations that I must tell you I have absolutely no idea. And I’m somewhat curious myself. A couple of things to consider.

1. Something like this shouldn’t make you lose faith at all, it may just be something that you don’t understand or makes sense. Everything doesn’t have to make sense to you for the faith to be true. That is egoism thinking you will be able to understand everything.
2. There may indeed be a great answer and that may or may not be provided by the posters on this forum. Keep delving into the great minds of the past on this and it may help. I’m excited to see if someone can speak to this on the level you are looking for.

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Scholarly mumbojumbo? Hmm well, that mumbojumbo has seen fit to guide the greatest minds in the history of the Church. I think that was a little out of line for a sincere thread and a legitimate question. Throwing a scripture verse out without any context or addressing the OPs concerns is rude.

 

[porthos11]

Casting lots, at that time was still accepted form of discerning God’s will which goes back to Old Testament Israelite religion. God revealed his will to Israel through lots, notably, through Urim and Thummim.

The apostles’ use of the casting of lots is simply a continuation of what was divinely approved from the Old Testament. And notably, it was the last time the method was used in the Bible. Shortly after was Pentecost, and Christians received the gift of discernment. From that point on, Christians discerned God’s will by relying directly on the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TexasLoneStar]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, yall.

I talked with some others and they pointed out in the CCC the specific wording is regarding the “interpretation” of lots, as would a shaman, seeress, etc. do. Not in the sense of Acts.

Still not sure what St. Aquinas meant but ultimately a priest told me: “look, the Scripture is infallible, Summa isn’t”.

Problem averted.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Casting lots is like drawing straws. It is a way to select a person at random. Not at all the same thing as divination.

 

[BartholomewB]

Casting lots as a means of learning God’s will — or the will of a pagan god — was commonly practiced in the ancient Middle East, and was carried over into New Testament times, as we see from the passages in Acts that you have quoted in your OP.

This article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (link below), setting out what little is known about the Urim and Thummim, may help to put those NT passages into perspective. What, exactly, these objects were is not known for certain, but their sacred nature is shown by the fact that the high priest kept them in a pouch that he wore hung around his neck as part of his vestments. From a brief mention in Numbers 27:21, historians have deduced that Moses was permitted by the Lord to address Him directly, but Joshua and his successors could speak to the Lord only through the mediation of the high priest and by means of the Urim and Thummim. The high priest then consulted these oracular objects—possibly tossing them like coins or rolling them like dice, though that is no more than a conjecture — to learn the Lord’s Yes or No answer.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15224a.htm

 

[Mrchatsworth]

Cleromancy or the casting of lots to discern God’s will is not done to be random. Biblically are least 6 times lots were cast in the Old Testament to discern God’s will. And in the New Testament the replacement apostle was chosen by lots. Not to be random between two choices but to allow the Holy Spirit a voice. The Coptic pope is still chosen by lots. While we may view it as random like a coin flip, it has a deep religious history in our faith where it has been seen as something that is indeed not random. What I’m curious about is why this practice has seemed to have faded and how one squares it with divination and the no no that that is. It’s very biblical and in the Bible it is not seen as random but is done with intent.

 

[kapp19]

My friend - you are not reading the Summa correctly. Give the ANSWER a read (the long part) - not the “sed contra” - which you quote as a “response to the objection,” which it is not… Thomas lays out a coherent answer, making the necessary distinctions. I think you will find a good deal of difference between the Biblical cases (and the upshot of lots which may lawfully be used in contemporary times - see his argument about Pentecost, and about the election of ecclesiastical figures), and pagan rituals.

The Summa is not infallible, but usually when we think Thomas is saying something wrong, it’s we who are exercising fallibility!